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Old 01-16-2010, 08:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpolk View Post
why the pump ? not city fed? our suppression systems were on constant
City water pressure in a lot of areas is not high enough especially if your going up floors, the city water pressure is constantly applied, and a jockey pump maintains a higher pressure, if the jockey pump pressure drops and can't keep up the main fire pump starts.

Our area city water pressure 70# fire pump pressure 150#.
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Old 01-16-2010, 08:57 AM   #17
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FYI - About fire pumps... In rural areas, it can take the fire department a long time to get to a fire. And rural homes have their own water wells. A fire could cause the main breaker to trip and that would leave you without water from the well with which to fight the fire! So it is a good idea to place the water well on a separate source of electricity other than via the house main breaker. Then main power can be off to the house, yet still going to the water well.

And with a large high rise building, the city water pressure is not high enough to get the water to the top floors. So they use pumps in the basement to pump the water up. And one of these pumps is a fire pump for the fire sprinkler system.

And fire alarms in a high rise would monitor if the fire pump is running (fire or no fire, you want to know if water is spraying all over the place!). And you would want to know if electric power was lost to the fire pump for some reason so someone could repair the problem. You would not want a breaker to trip and the fire pump to be without power for several months, then have a fire.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:07 PM   #18
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If there is a generator with an automatic transfer switch that will supply the fire pump in the event of a loss of utility power, then 695.3 (A) (1) does not apply. It is entitled 'Individual Sources', and 'Electric Utility Service Connection'.

If you have a generator, than 695.3 (B) applies. It is entitled 'Multiple Sources'. There is no requirement for a tap ahead of any disconnecting means here. The transfer switch (which feeds the fire pump controller) can be fed from anywhere in the system.

The utility source needs to be able to supply the locked-rotor current of the motor indefinitely. The wire needs to be 125% of the full-load current of the motor. There is no length limitation.

The generator only needs to be big enough to start and run the fire pump along with all other loads it supplies.

I don't think I've ever installed a fire pump without a generator. The term 'reliable' in 695.3 (A) would be subject to interpretation, I doubt that a normal utility service would qualify.

If there's no generator, the tap can be made anywhere except the main disconnecting means enclosure. It can be inside the meter can (with approval from the POCO), or a separate enclosure. I don't know if you'll be able to find an enclosure or tapping device that's listed as service equipment though.

Around here, I don't know how many times I've made taps in cans and gutters that have supplied multiple meters with just basic split-bolts or Polaris type connectors, or supplied more than one panel from a single meter. Every one has passed inspection, though I realize every AHJ is different.

Rob
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:37 PM   #19
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nice post rob where i was tring to get to, had to leave. Have done several large assisted living structures and multiple floor apartment/condos with fire suppression and they all had power back up
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:12 AM   #20
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First, thanks for the through response. At least now I know, I haven't been drinking too much bath water!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
If there is a generator with an automatic transfer switch that will supply the fire pump in the event of a loss of utility power, then 695.3 (A) (1) does not apply. It is entitled 'Individual Sources', and 'Electric Utility Service Connection'.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
If you have a generator, than 695.3 (B) applies. It is entitled 'Multiple Sources'.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
There is no requirement for a tap ahead of any disconnecting means here. The transfer switch (which feeds the fire pump controller) can be fed from anywhere in the system.
As I see it, here is the rub between the regs. In NEC I agree. But, that is not the way I read NFPA20. I read the objective of NFPA 20 as get power from the electric utility to the fire pump controller without any equipment, disconnects, or overcurrent protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
The utility source needs to be able to supply the locked-rotor current of the motor indefinitely. The wire needs to be 125% of the full-load current of the motor. There is no length limitation.
I agree. Let the motor burn itself up squirtin' water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
The generator only needs to be big enough to start and run the fire pump along with all other loads it supplies.
The PLC control system will shed all loads if there is a fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
I don't think I've ever installed a fire pump without a generator. The term 'reliable' in 695.3 (A) would be subject to interpretation, I doubt that a normal utility service would qualify.
Yeah, reliable is pretty nebulous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
If there's no generator, the tap can be made anywhere except the main disconnecting means enclosure. It can be inside the meter can (with approval from the POCO), or a separate enclosure. I don't know if you'll be able to find an enclosure or tapping device that's listed as service equipment though.
That has been the issue from the beginning. If you assume NFPA20 means nothing but wire between the utility and and fire pump controller, then the whole 'service equipment' tap becomes the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
Around here, I don't know how many times I've made taps in cans and gutters that have supplied multiple meters with just basic split-bolts or Polaris type connectors, or supplied more than one panel from a single meter. Every one has passed inspection, though I realize every AHJ is different.
Logically, I agree. There is no safety reason that you couldn't just drop in a JB with split bolts, Polaris, or Ilsco blocks and be done. And as it happens, I am dealing with a wood pecker (or is it the other way around) AHJ.

So I am going to draw it up two ways, put it in front of the AHJ, tell him to pick one, and go from there.

Again, thanks for the thorough response. We will see what happens.
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:44 AM   #21
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I have a couple of questions out of curiosity:

Is this in a home???
What is a "JOTMAN"?
What is your role in all this?
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:33 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
I have a couple of questions out of curiosity:

Is this in a home???
What is a "JOTMAN"?
What is your role in all this?
And, does this relate to DIY work? If not, www.contractortalk.com, www.electriciantalk.com, or www.plumbingzone.com would be more appropriate sites.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
I have a couple of questions out of curiosity:

Is this in a home???
What is a "JOTMAN"?
What is your role in all this?
1) "Home" = Yes - 80+ Acres with seven seperate buildings, one of which will be a "house".
2) JOATMAN - Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
3) My Role - Owner, Architect, Engineer, Project Manager, Banker, General Contractor, Contract Negotiator, Software Programmer, Labor Coordinator, Laborer.... and by the time I get done with the project we will see what others I can come up with!

Since I don't have to do that work thing anymore, this project keeps me off the streets and out of the bars!!
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
And, does this relate to DIY work? If not, www.contractortalk.com, www.electriciantalk.com, or www.plumbingzone.com would be more appropriate sites.
The sites you mentioned are all good sites.... I visit them regularly. Only problem is couldn't register to ask this (or any other) question because I am not one of them there PRO..fessionals.

Just doin' a little DIY'n
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:13 AM   #25
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its been my experience tho I am not sure about residential the fire codes always take precedence

Last edited by tpolk; 01-17-2010 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:25 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by FIA Ranch View Post
2) JOATMAN - Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
Please don't take this the wrong way, but IMO this immediately precludes you from working on a fire suppression system. I don't care where it is, even in your own home.
Fire suppression is NOT a DIY job!

But that's just my lil' ole' opinion.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:17 AM   #27
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but IMO this immediately precludes you from working on a fire suppression system. I don't care where it is, even in your own home.
Fire suppression is NOT a DIY job!

But that's just my lil' ole' opinion.
Opinions and belly buttons...... everybody has one.... and I respect them all.... don't want to look at 'um all, but do respect 'um!

By education and trade, I have been an engineer since WAY BACK when I had hair! So with some reading and research, I understand the principles and issues involved in building fire supression systems. Will actually be using some water and some FM200 (around electrical and electronics). However, that job I mentioned.... contract negotiator..... will come into play here... I will be contracting out the engineering of the systems themselves (actually twice so I can compare designs), to make sure the pumps, pump controllers, ATS, line pressures, heads, zones, alarms, control network, etc., are all optimized. I could figure it out, but for insurance reasons, the design will need to be stamped.

So rest easy..... no where in the specs and plans is there any options for becomming a crispy critter!

I think we hijacked my own thread! We were talking about electricity.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:48 AM   #28
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You can always call your inspector and ask them what they want to see for the power tap for this type of installation.
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Old 01-17-2010, 01:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIA Ranch View Post
The sites you mentioned are all good sites.... I visit them regularly. Only problem is couldn't register to ask this (or any other) question because I am not one of them there PRO..fessionals.

Just doin' a little DIY'n
Fair enough! Proceed!

With the 2009 Residential Code requiring fire sprinklers in all new dwelling units without exception (effective January 2011 in areas that adopt the code), this site will surely see more conversations about such systems. Sounds like FIA Ranch's system is a lot more complex than what the code prescibes for residential applications though.
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:04 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
Fair enough! Proceed!

With the 2009 Residential Code requiring fire sprinklers in all new dwelling units without exception (effective January 2011 in areas that adopt the code), this site will surely see more conversations about such systems. Sounds like FIA Ranch's system is a lot more complex than what the code prescibes for residential applications though.

Yeah... give it another year..... when that 13D stuff hits, the topic will get much more discussion. And watch the rush on building permits in December to beat that date! And funeral services for the contractor that 'forgot' to pull his permit until January 5th and has to tell his client that the cost of their new home just went up $5K
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