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Old 08-10-2009, 12:54 AM   #31
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Terminology


Trying to follow the NEC and the info posted here and I could use some clarification on terms. Have I got these right?

When the codes say 'outlet' it sure sounds like they mean any type of load connection, wall receptacles, lights, etc, and not just 3-prong 'wall outlets'.

Does 'receptacle' only refer to prong type or are screw in light sockets also receptacles?

A 'branch circuit' sounds like everything hanging off a single breaker. Does it have to be a single daisy chain of loads, or could it fork right from the breaker into two separate ones and still be one branch circuit?
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:16 AM   #32
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Kitchen


It seems like the codes require quite a few breakers just for the kitchen. The minimum (2008 NEC) looks like:
2 20A for kitchen receptacles poss including refrigerator
1 20A for disposal and dishwasher
1 ?A for oven (if electric), microwave
1 ?A for stovetop (if electric)
1 15 or 20A for lighting, hood (could be general lighting circuit)

Does this look right?

Is the GFCI requirement in the kitchen only satisfied by using a GFCI breaker in the panel, or is a standard breaker with a GFCI receptacle OK?
If so, is it enough that the 1st receptacle in the chain be GFCI for protecting all countertop outlets?
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tns1 View Post
Trying to follow the NEC and the info posted here and I could use some clarification on terms. Have I got these right?

When the codes say 'outlet' it sure sounds like they mean any type of load connection, wall receptacles, lights, etc, and not just 3-prong 'wall outlets'.

Does 'receptacle' only refer to prong type or are screw in light sockets also receptacles?

A 'branch circuit' sounds like everything hanging off a single breaker. Does it have to be a single daisy chain of loads, or could it fork right from the breaker into two separate ones and still be one branch circuit?
As per NEC 2002 Definitions (Still in effect on Long Island NY)
Lighting Outlet
An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.
Outlet
A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Power Outlet
An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit breakers, fuseholders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes, recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means for distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily installed equipment.
Receptacle Outlet.
An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:35 PM   #34
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Is the GFCI requirement in the kitchen only satisfied by using a GFCI breaker in the panel, or is a standard breaker with a GFCI receptacle OK?
If so, is it enough that the 1st receptacle in the chain be GFCI for protecting all countertop outlets?

All of the above are correct
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:36 PM   #35
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All of the above are correct
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
It seems like the codes require quite a few breakers just for the kitchen. The minimum (2008 NEC) looks like:
2 20A for kitchen receptacles
1 20A for disposal and dishwasher
1 20A for oven (if electric), microwave
1 check with manufacture for amps for stovetop (if electric)
1 15 or 20A for lighting, hood (could be general lighting circuit)
putting the refrigerator on a GFCI is not a good design. instead put it on a dedicated circuit with single receptacle
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:50 PM   #37
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Ongoing debate about (Electrical) Codes


Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c7 View Post
Don't quote me on this - but I've heard rumors that this was going to become a requirement for ALL residential breakers. Was on Global news late last year, haven't heard much since.
Some people and groups are working strenuously that the IEC (International Electrical Code) should govern installations in the Good Old USA. But it's not likely to happen. Maybe, that's a good Code for Europe. But for the US, the best thing is the NEC. (National Electrical Code). You gotta give credit where it is due. NECA (National Electrical Contractors Association) is in the forefront of the vigilance to keep the NEC as the operating guide in this country. Maybe Canada, due to the attempts to become like Europe, will bow to pressure and accept the IEC. (a/o Canadian Electrical Code). (Now more than ever) Don't Drink and Drive!!!
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherSprks View Post
As per NEC 2002 Definitions (Still in effect on Long Island NY)
Lighting Outlet
An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.
Outlet
A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Power Outlet
An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit breakers, fuseholders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes, recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means for distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily installed equipment.
Receptacle Outlet.
An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.
The definitions in the 2008 codes have probably not changed much from 2002. From 2008:
Attachment Plug (Plug Cap) (plug). A device that, by
insertion in a receptacle, establishes a connection between
the conductors of the attached flexible cord and the
conductors connected permanently to the receptacle.
Receptacle A receptacle is a contact device installed at the
outlet for the connection of an attachment plug.

Only Now do I can see that 'Attachment Plug' and 'Receptacle' can only refer to a detachable power socket and power cord. A 'Receptacle' is never a screw-in light socket. Maybe if it were called a 'Lighting Receptacle' , but that is not defined.

Unless specified further, 'Outlet' says nothing about how a load is connected, just that there is a possible load connection (junction boxes, wire nuts, light sockets, screw terminals all qualify). All Receptacles are Outlets, but not all Outlets are Receptacles.

This NEC makes a lot more sense knowing these words mean different things.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:45 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherSprks View Post
putting the refrigerator on a GFCI is not a good design. instead put it on a dedicated circuit with single receptacle
OK, revised version (2008 NEC):

Kitchen:

It seems like the codes require quite a few breakers just for the kitchen. The minimum (2008 NEC) looks like:
2 20A for kitchen receptacles
1 20A for disposal and dishwasher
1 20A for oven (if electric), microwave
1 15A refrigerator
1 check with manufacture for amps for stovetop (if electric)
1 15 or 20A for lighting, hood (could be general lighting circuit)
The rest of the house:
1 20A for laundry receptacles
1 20A for bathroom receptacles
1 20A for garage
1 20A for outside outlets in front and backyards
1 15A for central heat
1 or more 15A or 20A for a lighting

For 2008, almost every receptacle is also GFCI & tamper resistant.

As best as I can tell the above is the mininum you can get by with for a small house. A panel (or panels) with 10 breakers. If you are replacing your panel (which I am) it looks like a 12 or 14 position panel is probably the minimum assuming that some breakers may be half-width, and leaving a couple full positions open. I have a 4 position sub-panel fed from one main breaker that handles the bedrooms & lighting.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:19 PM   #40
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Just to clarify a few things: the only absolutely required circuits are two for kitchen countertops, which can also feed the fridge and dining room; one bathroom receptacle circuit; one laundry circuit; and a general lighting circuit. Obviously, you could choose to not have heat or A/C, or have a gas stove, or no stove at all. And all the other general use receptacles are figured in the general lighting load calc of 3 W/sq. ft.

So, let's say you had a 2000 sq. ft. house. The required general lighting load is 6000 watts, which equates to 50 A at 120 V. So at bare minimum, every general receptacle and light in your house could be on three 20 A circuits!
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Old 08-14-2009, 12:28 AM   #41
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I am trying to figure out what is a reasonable panel size for a typical configuration. I think most homes will at least have the items listed.
I think the 2008 codes say both kitchen circuits are GFCI, so you need another breaker if the refrig should not be on GFCI. My central heat is gas, but it still has a fan motor.

If I am overinterpreting the codes, let me know.
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Old 08-14-2009, 01:08 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
Some people and groups are working strenuously that the IEC (International Electrical Code) should govern installations in the Good Old USA. But it's not likely to happen. Maybe, that's a good Code for Europe. But for the US, the best thing is the NEC. (National Electrical Code). You gotta give credit where it is due. NECA (National Electrical Contractors Association) is in the forefront of the vigilance to keep the NEC as the operating guide in this country. Maybe Canada, due to the attempts to become like Europe, will bow to pressure and accept the IEC. (a/o Canadian Electrical Code). (Now more than ever) Don't Drink and Drive!!!

Not always the case due I am famuair with both NEC and French electrical codes and they do crossover each other belive or not but it is true!

In French code they allready adpoted few NEC codes in the French regulations and the NEC took a hint and adpot couple items from French electrical regulations.

I know someone mention AFCI well., that is old news to European electricians we have that for pretty long time it called RCD resdual current leakage device it work simair to GFCI/ AFCI { kinda cross of both but AFCI feature in RCD not always enabled (used) espcally with older RCD verison.

Merci,Marc
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:13 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tns1 View Post
I am trying to figure out what is a reasonable panel size for a typical configuration. I think most homes will at least have the items listed.
I think the 2008 codes say both kitchen circuits are GFCI, so you need another breaker if the refrig should not be on GFCI. My central heat is gas, but it still has a fan motor.

If I am overinterpreting the codes, let me know.
The Code says that the kitchen countertop receptacles are to be GFCI protected. In other words, the circuit itself can be a regular circuit, and you can use GFCI receptacles. If you bring a circuit to the refrigerator receptacle first, you can use a regular receptacle then continue on to the GFCI receptacles.

For the record, I'm only speaking of bare minimum. You can of course go above and beyond if you choose to. And I don't think I would install a panel anywhere that was less than 20 space. They are so cheap, the bigger the better.
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:56 AM   #44
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I installed a 20 space panel in my pool cabana as a sub
I probably only needed 6 spaces, but it was cheap money
If the house is a decent size I'd install a 200a panel w/40 spaces even if the feed was 100-150a



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Old 08-14-2009, 10:36 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
The Code says that the kitchen countertop receptacles are to be GFCI protected. In other words, the circuit itself can be a regular circuit, and you can use GFCI receptacles. If you bring a circuit to the refrigerator receptacle first, you can use a regular receptacle then continue on to the GFCI receptacles.

For the record, I'm only speaking of bare minimum. You can of course go above and beyond if you choose to. And I don't think I would install a panel anywhere that was less than 20 space. They are so cheap, the bigger the better.
Okay, so the refrig can be put on one of the kitchen circuits. Check.

Right now my old house does violate a few 2008 codes:
There are two kitchen circuits, but they each have receptacles and fixed appliance loads, and the laundry is on one of them.
The furnace fan circuit is the same as the hallway and attic.
The 1.5 bathroom circuit is the same as the master bedroom.

Since the wiring is old, I'll fix these things eventually. I assume that replacing the panel would not require me to fix them right now.
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