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Old 03-18-2010, 10:23 PM   #46
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Let me just put in my Two Cents to this whole discussion about Grounds and Bonds. In NYC, (which used to have its own Electrical Code) before it switched to the NEC, the main "Effector" of ground was the ("Street side") connection to the water main. That wire was called the Ground. Now, that a Grounding Rod is used, that same wire is no longer called a Ground. It's known as the "BOND" (to Ground).! Also. Code. Any Code, is the most formal form of speech. It is not Anecdotal. It uses previously-agreed upon terms and definitions. It's the opposite of "Chat" or texting, which is the LEAST formal mode of speech. No rules of Grammar or spelling are necessary.!
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
...the main "Effector" of ground was the ("Street side") connection to the water main. That wire was called the Ground. Now, that a Grounding Rod is used, that same wire is no longer called a Ground. It's known as the "BOND" (to Ground)...
Well you certainly have me on that point!

I don't see any way around NOT using the words "bond", "bonded" so far as the water pipe system goes (when ground rod(s) are used and it is not the "primary ground").

An important distinction. Good point!

Plastic water pipes are being installed everywhere. Sections of metal pipe are being replaced with plastic pipe. A troublesome area. For plumbers too...
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post
I don't see any way around NOT using the words "bond", "bonded" so far as the water pipe system goes (when ground rod(s) are used and it is not the "primary ground")...
And you need to know when you are bonding the water system to ground (a ground rod) versus the water system (pipe exiting the house) is the grounding electrode to which other things are bonded.

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Old 03-19-2010, 01:12 PM   #49
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IMO a grounding conductor by definition connects the grounded conductor (neutral) to the earth. This is done by one or more means, ufer ground, mettallic water piping, ground rods, plates etc.
A bonding conductor by definition connects the mettallic parts of devices, utilization equipment, etc. to grounding electrode system established by the grounding means above. This is why you "bond" such things as mettallic water piping even if the water main entering the building is plastic. The purpose of bonding is to provide a low impedance path so that a breaker will trip if usch things as water pipes happened to become energized.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post
Well you certainly have me on that point!

I don't see any way around NOT using the words "bond", "bonded" so far as the water pipe system goes (when ground rod(s) are used and it is not the "primary ground").

An important distinction. Good point!

Plastic water pipes are being installed everywhere. Sections of metal pipe are being replaced with plastic pipe. A troublesome area. For plumbers too...
But the point of Nap (in his retort to... don't remember,exactly to who) still stands. That you can not call the EGC (Equipment Ground Conductor) a "Bonding" wire. Because, then, the accepted terms are confused.!
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:58 PM   #51
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2008 NEC Definition of an ECG,FPN No. 1, It is recognized that the equipment grouding condctor also performs bonding.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:16 PM   #52
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I'm sorry...I gotta do this.

In the context of the above discussions:

Ground is a noun, a verb, and an adjective;
Grounded is a verb, and an adjective;
Grounding is a verb
Bond is a noun and a verb
Bonded is a verb and an adjective
Bonding is a verb and an adjective

Duh...what now?
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:41 PM   #53
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E=brric;416908]
A bonding conductor by definition connects the mettallic parts of devices, utilization equipment, etc. to grounding electrode system established by the grounding means above.
Not true. As an example: when establishing an equipotential plane around a swimming pool, all metallic parts are bonded together. It is not required they are connect to the grounding electrode system.

bonding is a very simple term:

(per the NEC)

the permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed.


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This is why you "bond" such things as mettallic water piping even if the water main entering the building is plastic. The purpose of bonding is to provide a low impedance path so that a breaker will trip if usch things as water pipes happened to become energized.
and here we are back to this misconception. Grounding does nothing to make the breaker trip. The EGC is considered to be a pathway for fault currents to as to cause a breaker to trip should a situation come about where the breaker should trip but it will do this regardless of whether it is grounded or not.

You bond all metal in a home so there is no difference of potential between two metal objects. You connect that bonded groups of items to the grounding terminal at the panel so as to cause a breaker to trip should there be a need. You ground all of this stuff because (but not limited to) of several things; causing a zero difference of potential between ground and metal object likely to be energized unintentionally, allowing a fault path for objectionable currents due lightning.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:51 PM   #54
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I think 4 pages of discussion is more then enough

...but maybe not
As long as its kept civil....not that it wasn't

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Old 03-19-2010, 11:26 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
...You connect that bonded groups of items to the grounding terminal at the panel so as to cause a breaker to trip should there be a need. ...
Perhaps the more correct description is to say you connect the bonded items to the neutral terminal of the main service panel if you wish the overcurrent device to trip in the event of a fault. Yes, the neutral terminal is grounded via a bond to the earth, but it is the path of least resistance back to the source that allows enough current to flow to trip the overcurrent device. That least resistance path would be the neutral service conductor, not the earth.

Last edited by jlmran; 03-19-2010 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:36 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by jlmran View Post
Perhaps the more correct description to say you connect the bonded items to the neutral terminal (of the system), if you wish the overcurrent device to trip in the event of a fault. Yes, the neutral terminal is grounded, but it is the path back to the source that allows enough current to flow to trip the overcurrent device.
and as I stated in my last post:

Quote:
Grounding does nothing to make the breaker trip
.

and just to give you a hard time: if the grounding conductors are terminated in a sub-panel, they they must be connected to the grounding bar, not the neutral connections which, of course, are not bonded in that particular panel.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:40 PM   #57
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and just to give you a hard time: if the grounding conductors are terminated in a sub-panel, they they must be connected to the grounding bar, not the neutral connections which, of course, are not bonded in that particular panel.
Yeah, I know...but if I were King of the world, the grounding bar in a sub-panel would be called a bonding bar. But, I'm not king of the world.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:45 PM   #58
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Yeah, I know...but if I were King of the world, the grounding bar in a sub-panel would be called a bonding bar. But, I'm not king of the world.
Ya, but if you did that you would confuse the heck out of all us electricians
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Old 03-20-2010, 06:48 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlmran View Post
Perhaps the more correct description is to say you connect the bonded items to the neutral terminal of the main service panel if you wish the overcurrent device to trip in the event of a fault. Yes, the neutral terminal is grounded via a bond to the earth, but it is the path of least resistance back to the source that allows enough current to flow to trip the overcurrent device. That least resistance path would be the neutral service conductor, not the earth.
I totally agree with your statement. Nothing I wrote in post # 49 says anything to refute it. Bonding mettallic parts provides the low impedance path back to the source.
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:34 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post
Plastic water pipes are being installed everywhere. Sections of metal pipe are being replaced with plastic pipe. A troublesome area. For plumbers too...
Ideally you would bond the metal pipe downstream of the plastic section to the metal pipe upstream of the plastic section using a #12 wire following the plastic pipe.

If you already closed up the wall without bonding the pipe sections, then you need to run a ground wire from the downstream section of metal plumbing using one of the same methods used for installing a 3 prong receptcle where a 2 prong receptacle used to be (but not by tying in to the ground wire of the nearest Romex cable).
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Last edited by AllanJ; 03-20-2010 at 07:37 AM.
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