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Old 12-26-2009, 07:14 PM   #46
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Try my French electrical rates you will fall off the chair the worst rate will be on Rouge jour { Red day } the rate will be the highest typically about 25 cent per Kwh otherwise normal rate is about 8 to 10 cent per KWH

the load centre which I refering to the breaker box take the cover off very carefully then take the photo of it espcally with main conductor so we can see where this going due you allready have pull box open so it will give you the general idea where it goes.

Merci,Marc
Marc,

It is nice to know that we don't have the most expensive electricity in the known universe. But I don't think I'll switch over to electric heating any time soon...

OK, I'll take a photo but not toady---it's raining and miserable outside. Btw, I had the breaker box cover off many times when installing the transfer switch, so it won't be a problem. And I will definitely be careful.

Thanks again to everybody for all of the useful and interesting comments.
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:58 PM   #47
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Nap: the conduit is 1.5 inch.

.
Did you measure it? Is that inside or outside?

1 1/2 inch conduit (nominal or trade size) does not measure out at 1 1/2 inches. Inside diameter is 1.624 inches and outside is 1.9 inches for rigid conduit and IMC measures at 1.7" inside and 1.883" outside.

1" rigid measures around 1.3 something inches and 1 1/4 measures around 1.6 something inches outside diameter.



I'll take your word on the wire count. I still can't see it.

anyway;

you said you have the POCO requirements? I know in some areas, they actually spec the riser pipe size. any such requirements in yours?


do you have them online? a link would allow us to peruse them for vital info possibly.
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:12 PM   #48
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Did you measure it? Is that inside or outside?

1 1/2 inch conduit (nominal or trade size) does not measure out at 1 1/2 inches. Inside diameter is 1.624 inches and outside is 1.9 inches for rigid conduit and IMC measures at 1.7" inside and 1.883" outside.

1" rigid measures around 1.3 something inches and 1 1/4 measures around 1.6 something inches outside diameter.



I'll take your word on the wire count. I still can't see it.

anyway;

you said you have the POCO requirements? I know in some areas, they actually spec the riser pipe size. any such requirements in yours?


do you have them online? a link would allow us to peruse them for vital info possibly.
I believe the current requirements are here:
http://beta1.pge.com/includes/docs/p...7_gb_final.pdf
See section 6.6 "Attachment Structure (Periscopes)", which begins on page 128 (aka p. 6-22).
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:33 PM   #49
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Ok. a couple pages for you to take note of:

6-17, 6-21, 6-23. These concern the riser size, height, attachment, and very importantly the height of the conductors above the surrounding roof area.

then pg 6-24, the section with the dark bar beside it. Remember what I said about the junction box being odd? Well, that section basically disallows what you have without some sort of alteration. The power company needs a way to apply a seal to such so as to prevent tampering with the conductors within.

You might talk to them about your situation to see if there is a way to make it acceptable without major alterations.

For all I know they will not gripe about it but I know the POCO would in my area. Better safe than having to fix something later.


I have not read the info very thoroughly so there is probable more that is important. I'll cruise through it again to try to catch what I can.
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:25 AM   #50
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Ok. a couple pages for you to take note of:

6-17, 6-21, 6-23. These concern the riser size, height, attachment, and very importantly the height of the conductors above the surrounding roof area.

then pg 6-24, the section with the dark bar beside it. Remember what I said about the junction box being odd? Well, that section basically disallows what you have without some sort of alteration. The power company needs a way to apply a seal to such so as to prevent tampering with the conductors within.

You might talk to them about your situation to see if there is a way to make it acceptable without major alterations.

For all I know they will not gripe about it but I know the POCO would in my area. Better safe than having to fix something later.


I have not read the info very thoroughly so there is probable more that is important. I'll cruise through it again to try to catch what I can.
I admit to not being very good at reading these kinds of documents---in spite of having spent 7+ years working for Uncle Sam and having to read the most inane government-speak on a daily basis. Having said that, I was under the impression that the crucial info for my situation is in Figure 6-38 and Table 6-4. Also, I don't see how the dark-barred stuff on p. 6-24 applies, since there won't be any elbows, so there is no issue of sealing them. Let me know if I'm missing something here. Thanks.
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:02 PM   #51
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6-24 applies because of that junction box you have. I suspect they will not allow that due to the fact it allows you unfettered access to the service conductors before they enter the meter can. That is a no-no anywhere I have ever worked.


. PG&E stated you can use an LB but it must be able to be sealed. I would think a box is an acceptable alternative but I would ask plus it most likely still needs to be able to be sealed by PG&E.

their statement of "being sealed" refers to placing a seal on the enclosure to prevent tampering.

fig 6-38 is for a braced riser. I would think 6-37 would be more applicable. Table 6-5 would help you determine which is actually applicable though.

fig 6-39 is quite important as well.

and now you know why this is not as simple as it appears. There is a lot in an electricians head that is taken for granted. Even in this seemingly simple installation, there are myriad possibilities with myriad rules to apply to have an acceptable resulting installation.

some very basic rules in this:

the wires cannot be with 12" of the roof area they overhang. You need to use at least 1 1/4 rigid or IMC conduit (steel) or 2" if using aluminum (you won't be, trust me on that one) but what size conduit you use will also be determined by the wire you use. You never did say what size the service is and that makes a difference.

You never answered my question about this riser being enclosed in the wall. It appears it is and if so, you will have to open the wall to brace the riser near that junction box.

So, is the riser inside the wall and what size is the service?
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:03 PM   #52
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The riser is indeed inside the wall. I'll take some pictures and post some more info in a bit, but I'm going to be busy with some family stuff for a few hours.

In the meantime, I do have one question. It seems that the 1 1/2 inch imc conduit that is currently used in this riser comes in 10' lengths. Since the total length is about 15', that would mean there is a coupling in there somewhere, correct? If so, that would seem to simplify things, since I could just remove the top section. Btw, I have opened the wall in one spot and did not see a coupling there, but I plan to open up more of it---to be precise, 10' from the bottom and, if no coupling there, 10' from the top.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:26 PM   #53
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yes, electrical conduit comes in 10' lengths so there is a coupling in there somewhere...as long as electrical conduit was used

How have you determined this is 1 1/2 IMC? I'm curious.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:03 PM   #54
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I admit to not being very good at reading these kinds of documents---in spite of having spent 7+ years working for Uncle Sam and having to read the most inane government-speak on a daily basis
Good to hear that you had the prerequisite skills
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Old 12-27-2009, 07:38 PM   #55
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yes, electrical conduit comes in 10' lengths so there is a coupling in there somewhere...as long as electrical conduit was used

How have you determined this is 1 1/2 IMC? I'm curious.
I used a very scientific process. First, I wrapped my hand around the conduit that's used in the riser, and I discovered that my thumb just overlapped the fingernail of my middle finger. I then went to Home Depot and found an exact match (based on my thumb-over-middle-finger method) and it was labeled as 1 1/2 inch IMC.
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Old 12-27-2009, 07:58 PM   #56
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I used a very scientific process. First, I wrapped my hand around the conduit that's used in the riser, and I discovered that my thumb just overlapped the fingernail of my middle finger. I then went to Home Depot and found an exact match (based on my thumb-over-middle-finger method) and it was labeled as 1 1/2 inch IMC.
actually, it should be on the pipe but the paint may not allow you to see it but the IMC was the really curious part. There is very little size diff in IMC and rigid externally (.017"). I have got to say, if you can determine .017" inch by using your fingers like that, you are good.

Wouldn't it have been easier (and most likely a bit more accurate) to simply measure the diameter and figure out what kind of pipe has that same diameter?
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:42 PM   #57
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Ok with 1.5 inch conduit IMO with 70mm˛ (2/0 awg ) that is pretty much limit and If that was larger than 70 it will NOT fit in there without damaging the conductor.

I did review the PDF files what your POCO requirement I know I did catch it say 1.5 inches but it have side note along it will require 2 inch for all riser.

My POCO in Wisconsin do not allow 1.5 inch riser at all only two inches riser reguarding of 100 or 150 or 200 amp service { single phase } for three phase it required 3 inch or larger.

So therefore you will have to replace with 2 inch mast I know it will be pain in butt but that is the only way you can keep it legal.

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:50 PM   #58
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I did review the PDF files what your POCO requirement I know I did catch it say 1.5 inches but it have side note along it will require 2 inch for all riser.
where did you find that Marc? I apparently missed it.
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:57 PM   #59
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Nap.,

Let me dig that up again and I will try to pin the page number on PDF format I know it was there { bear in your mind I am at least 7 time zone ahead of ya } so give me few minutes to catch up and snag that fish.

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-27-2009, 09:09 PM   #60
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Nap ., scroll down to page 6-22 it did listed the conduit for periscope requirement but it did not mention everything in there.

However it did show the photo on page 6-23 there it will expain pretty clear on that.

My POCO do not allow small periscope riser at all we ban that many years ago.

{ the only time they will allow it if that is used for CT's that it }

Merci,Marc
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