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Old 12-28-2009, 12:18 AM   #46
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Does anyone have paperwork stating Siemens breakers are UL classified for Murray panels? Cutler-Hammer BR breakers may be UL classified for Murray loadcenters but without any paperwork stating so, they are not allowed in a competing make of panel, Siemens owns Murray & both lines of circuit breakers are based on the the I-T-E breakers that Siemens bought from Gould Inc. about 1984, it all boils down to if UL tested & classified them to be used in competing makes of panels.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:22 AM   #47
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Rollie I do have paperwork but left back in Wisconsin { I am in France now }

But I did recall there were a PDF file that do list the comparble breaker to fit in Murrphy panels

I have to dig that up to get it here unless Nap or other can step foward with this details and post it here that will be great.

Merci.
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:36 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
Does anyone have paperwork stating Siemens breakers are UL classified for Murray panels? Cutler-Hammer BR breakers may be UL classified for Murray loadcenters but without any paperwork stating so, they are not allowed in a competing make of panel, Siemens owns Murray & both lines of circuit breakers are based on the the I-T-E breakers that Siemens bought from Gould Inc. about 1984, it all boils down to if UL tested & classified them to be used in competing makes of panels.
CH BR breakers are not listed for use in other brands panels. CH has had their CL breakers listed for use in a Murray panel.

I'll have to do some searching for the Siemens/Murray issue though.
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:54 AM   #49
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Man, I don't get paid nearly enough to work here!!

Well, here is a page from Siemens that explains the "classified" game.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produc..._Breakers.aspx

It doesn't define which of their breakers, are compatible with any other manuf. panels BUT it does make a statement near the beginning of the article that infers Siemens only makes breakers classified for use in Square D panels. Obviously not definitive.

Here is a snip from a UL publications explaining the game:
Breaker compatabiliy?-ul1.jpg

it does not list any interchangeable applications there. Apparently the listings are available but I have not been successful in finding such a list.

So. I have not found anything that would allow the use, specifically, but I did find that any breaker that has been classified to be used in other than their own equipment must be marked with "classified" on the product. It is also to include literature that provides direction to obtain specific allowed classification applications.

So, it appears the manuf of an given breaker must provide the info required to support the claim it is classified for use in another manuf. panel.
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Old 12-28-2009, 11:56 AM   #50
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Nap (Poster #49) Thanks a lot for that highly informative link. It's funny, though, that many years ago (probably less than 100..) the only 2 brands of breaker/panel that were not interchangeable with any other brand were Federal Pacific electric and Square D. All others were. GE, Westinghouse, Murray/Bryant (thought to be one and the same), some from Cutler Hammer and some others that don't come to mind. Not that it is right. especially for a new job. But I found many brands of breaker in many different panels. (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
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Old 12-28-2009, 07:10 PM   #51
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Nap (Poster #49) Thanks a lot for that highly informative link. It's funny, though, that many years ago (probably less than 100..) the only 2 brands of breaker/panel that were not interchangeable with any other brand were Federal Pacific electric and Square D. All others were. GE, Westinghouse, Murray/Bryant (thought to be one and the same), some from Cutler Hammer and some others that don't come to mind. Not that it is right. especially for a new job. But I found many brands of breaker in many different panels. (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!

You forgot Cutler-Hammer type CH, I-T-E pushmatic, Zinsco, Wadsworth, there is also a large installed base of Cutler-Hammer/Square D XO breakers, the XO,s have been obsolete for around 50 years.
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:29 PM   #52
 
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This is all great information. Thanks for the education here...
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:05 PM   #53
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Quote:
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You forgot Cutler-Hammer type CH, I-T-E pushmatic, Zinsco, Wadsworth, there is also a large installed base of Cutler-Hammer/Square D XO breakers, the XO,s have been obsolete for around 50 years.
Now that you're mentioning it, another brand of breakers that I was almost emotionally attached to, and were taken off the market for similar reasons that FPE breakers, were the Bull Dog brand. But they fared worse than all others. !
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Old 12-28-2009, 11:58 PM   #54
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Now that you're mentioning it, another brand of breakers that I was almost emotionally attached to, and were taken off the market for similar reasons that FPE breakers, were the Bull Dog brand. But they fared worse than all others. !
Prior to being bought by I-T-E the Pushmatic line was part of Bulldog Electric. Pushmatic has fared well compared to the most reviled names in the electrical industry, Zinsco/Sylvania & FPE, Federal Pacific Electric, only problems I know of w/ Pushmatic's is sometimes they are difficult to reset or fail to reset, and are costly to replace because they are obsolete,but not unsafe.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
Prior to being bought by I-T-E the Pushmatic line was part of Bulldog Electric. Pushmatic has fared well compared to the most reviled names in the electrical industry, Zinsco/Sylvania & FPE, Federal Pacific Electric, only problems I know of w/ Pushmatic's is sometimes they are difficult to reset or fail to reset, and are costly to replace because they are obsolete,but not unsafe.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record (or CD), I'll restate that my worst (and most fearful) experience was with FPE breakers. I was on a routine service call, when I was resetting a light fixture and one of the (very old) wires was shorting out to ground (ground fault) and sparks started flying like in a July 4th. fireworks display. Some of the nearby insulation started burning, nice and steady like a candle. I was one hundred percent certain that my next call will be to the Fire Dep't, when I finally managed to extinguish the fire. But the breaker didn't even come close to tripping. What's heartbreaking in a way, is, that they were one of the most popular and effective brand of circuit breaker around. I myself rewired (as part of a team) scores of apartments in Brooklyn and Queens, NY, istalling the "Federal" breakers in the entire building. !
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