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Old 12-27-2009, 10:07 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
I have to call you on that statement, there are two types of twin breakers, one is for loadcenters built prior to 1968 which do not have the notched bus stabs that current production loadcenters built since 1968 do have, & are "Non-CTL" ,then there are the current twin breakers which have a rejection tab that will only allow them to be installed in a notched bus stab a "CTL panelboard", a panel will in it's catalog number* and/or have a label stating the allowable number of twin breakers.

* Knowing how to decipher the number is another thing...
Well. In my case, the Cutler Hammer panel had a(n) '04 manufacturing date and the twin (thin, not tandem) breakers were installed about 4 years ago. As I stated in my original post, the breakers had the "Non CTL" sticker and were not rejected by the panel. But according to my calculations (in terms of load and (ample) space were acceptable.
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post

IMO, no new installation should have tandem breakers.
I agree. Such an install is generally a sign of trying to cut corners or absolutely no knowledge of design. Either one is really bad news.
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:44 PM   #33
 
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I'm new to this forum and just figured out that they're are alot more posts than I thought (3 pages). Being novice, it'll take me awhile to digest everything. Again thanks for all the help.. I'm also attaching a couple photo's here..if it works..
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
I agree. Such an install is generally a sign of trying to cut corners or absolutely no knowledge of design. Either one is really bad news.
I agree with you on the latter definition. Because when someone does such an install they're shortchanging themselves. It all reverts to the old question of whether the person at the counter can give a beginning DIY'er reliable and lifesaving information. I found the situation to be, generally, that the counter person at Electrical and Plumbing supply stores will give accurate information, a/o clerks at the (big box) Home centers. (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:30 PM   #35
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Wow! Considering you have illegal breakers (from what I can determine) in the panel, the installation actually looks decent. It is uncluttered.

I cannot identify them from the pic so, are all the breakers CH or is it just the tandems? Surely the main must be Murray, right?

and just for info, the breaker second in from the left on the bottom is a quad like somebody was speaking of previously. that one looks like 2 single pole 30's and a two pole 50 in the middle.

Not real sure about the circuit count. From the drawing on the right hand side of the second pic, it seems to infer you are allowed tandems in every slot. I cannot read anything written so it I cannot confirm that though.

So, what can you do?

Well, personally, I believe you should replace the panel in the pic with a 40 circuit 200 amp panel. That will allow you to add the circuits you need plus have extra space for future use.

I do not like tandem breakers generally and avoid them whenever possible (sometimes you just can't) so I would not suggest a panel designated with something such a 2040 in the model. While that would allow you to legally use a butt load of tandems, the fact is, you are using tandems.

I would stick with a panel designed for 40 full sized breakers.

but, if it can be determined that you can use tandems;

Since all non tandems in the panel are 2 pole breakers, I am not sure if you can even add another two pole breaker. I am not overly familiar with quad breaker configurations but what you would need is a quad breaker set up as two 2 pole breakers. I do not know if that configuration is available at all. Maybe one of the other guys will know.

I suppose a 20/30/30/20 with a complete common handle tie would work to allow you to replace one of the 30 amp 2 pole breakers and get what you need but do not know if that configuration is available.

Marc, what do you make of the drawing showing 40 circuits?
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:47 PM   #36
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That is indeed a nice looking installation, except for all the minis.

My experience is mostly commercial/industrial, but I've done enough residential to know where potential trouble spots are.

In my experience, 200 amp Murray mains have a tendency to burn up where they push onto the bus. The ones I've seen this problem with are the red or orange ones, but I've never seen a black one like you have.

This could be another factor to consider in the decision to keep or replace the panel. The other resi pros around here have more experience with Murray panels than I do, but I felt the need to bring this up.

Rob

P.S. Comm'l/ industrial stuff gets abused a bit more than resi, in my experience the panels with push-on breakers that fail the least are Square D QO, Siemens, and Cutler-Hammer type BR or CH. A bit further down on the list are Square D HOM, and GE.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:53 PM   #37
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I just looked that panel over again, I'm pretty sure all of the breakers are C/H type BR, except the quad. It looks like a Siemens.

Will they work? Most likely they will, but if there's ever an electrical fire, the first thing the insurance adjuster will look at is the panel. If the breakers are not listed for the panel, you'll have a much harder time with the claim.

Rob
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:04 PM   #38
 
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nap - Yes, the main is a Murray 200A. All the other breakers are identified with "BR" or "BD" (Cutler Hammer) except for the quad which I think is Seimens but not positive yet. Based on the label information (including the drawing) in the panel, I believe the line-up is sat if interpreting correctly. It appears the Panel is allowed for up to 40 circuits total based on the numbers indicated on the drawing (1-20 on one side and 21-40 on the other). I concur, from what I'm reading on the label, that the breaker type (Cutler Hammer BR) is not intended for my panel. The manufacture label states that only Murray breakers are recommended unless specifically stated and nowhere do I see the BR type listed. So, maybe they were trying to go cheap as previously stated. Seems like the county inspector would have caught something like that if it's not allowed...

Last night I was thinking the same thing, that It may be possible to use a quad with 2 double poles (50/20) and replace the top existing 50A double pole breaker while adding the 20A double pole circuit that I need (assuming 2 double pole quads exist). However, it seems there is alot of variables to this including the probable case that wrong type of breakers are in the box. So, I should probably go to a contractor for suggestions, right? Installing a new main box (40 slot as previously suggested) seems like the most attractive, but dang, I can only imagine the pricetag on that!
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:21 PM   #39
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if this is something that you do not feel comfortable with then yes, I would suggest at least speaking with a contractor.

I do not want to push you in to this but since you would not be changing the size of the service, replacing the panel is not overly difficult so if this is something you might consider doing, there is plenty of help here.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:53 PM   #40
 
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Again, thanks for all the help. My homebuilder had left a list of subcontractors that were used. Although it was done over 6 years ago, maybe I could at least get them to come take a look at it..
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:58 PM   #41
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Nap.,

After I did see the drawing what the stoneda70 provided to us and that is legit 20/40 box. (not too common I have see this combo )

Stoneda can you take a look at the label what you took the photo right below there is listing of breaker models that the listing of breaker that can be used on this load centre and yes you can get quad breaker.

So., Stoneda can you take the photo of lower section of the listing I know you allready got upper one but can you take the lower one so I can able verify which brand breaker we can able suggest to use safely.

But that lay out look very neat so it will make it easier however let me give you a head up anytime you take any 2 pole breaker and replace with quad before you do that I notice there are few white conductors which they are some are for 240 volts so please take a marker or tape and mark the white conductor as 240 volts so when you install the quad breaker it will be indentifed correct.

That all I need from you just take the photo of lower section of cover so I can able read the rest of breaker listing so one of us will steer you in correct way.

Merci,Marc

P.S. Stoneta are you in Canada ? If so let me know that will help a bit due the catalog number kinda give away to me Merci encore { thanks again }

Last edited by frenchelectrican; 12-27-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:59 PM   #42
 
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I took photo's to reveal the whole label below. I'm in Virginia.. Doug
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Breaker compatabiliy?-dscf0007.jpg   Breaker compatabiliy?-dscf0008.jpg   Breaker compatabiliy?-dscf0009.jpg  
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
if this is something that you do not feel comfortable with then yes, I would suggest at least speaking with a contractor.

I do not want to push you in to this but since you would not be changing the size of the service, replacing the panel is not overly difficult so if this is something you might consider doing, there is plenty of help here.
But (after looking at the pics. of the panel) there's another issue beside the question of the panel being able to carry the overall, combined load (what percentage is a continuous load). With all the mini (twin) breakers in use, the Neutral might well be overloaded, due to the fact that most circuits are not MWBC. (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!

Last edited by spark plug; 12-27-2009 at 04:03 PM. Reason: improper definition (Constant a/o Continuous)
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:35 PM   #44
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OK now we are getting somewhere that is Murrpy number and Seameins breaker will fit in this one no question at all.

I will post the breaker number little later for correct one for this load centre.

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:54 PM   #45
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Here the PDF file of the quadplex breaker there is couple verison and keep in your mind the price is not correct so ingore the price at the moment.


http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/contr...x_01/01_25.pdf


That should clear up all the misunderstood what going on for last couple days

Merci,Marc
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