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Old 12-26-2009, 04:59 PM   #16
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as stated, the sub may not be a legal possibility.


I'll try to do some more checking and I suspect Marc is as well. Hopefully we can give you a more confident answer before you go starting any work.
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneda70 View Post
Hmm...interesting and thank you for the (informal) information. I purchased this house about 6 years ago as new construction. A local company, I would not be very happy w/them if their contractor didn't use compatable products...But regardless, sounds like unfortunately for me the subpanel is the most logical path. I probably need to do some more research and I really appreciate your help..

Before you do anything more let me and Nap and other member to some leg work to come up with legal soluation to this set up so we can address it properly.

I do not know why if that contractor did use that load centre if they knew it will raise issue myself I just stay with well knowen namebrand like SqD or ClutterHammer or Seameins or GE { my last resort } those breaker manufacter been here for very long time so easy to find the product what it been offering for many years.

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:14 PM   #18
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I did backtrack this topic a little and the OP did stated 200 amp main so that is good right there.,

With 200 amp service set up it may be more festiable to change the main load centre by remove the oddball size Murphy load centre to 40 space load centre it will have far much more room in there.

The costwise that I am not sure due I do not know which state the OP is from so it will vaires a bit and I really recomend that the Electrician to change the load centre that is a half day task so you will be out of power for about 2 or so hours then you will have all correct breakers in there and clean up some wiring if it do show up.

per forum rules I can not quote the price for everything in here due too many variations it will affect the price.

Before you do anything more just wonding how many circuits you have in there so count all the two pole and single poles { both full size and tandem verison } most of us will recomend 40 space 200 amp load centre

Hope that give you some idea where it going.

If more question just holler one us will answer it for you.

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:19 PM   #19
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Ok, from Eaton (parent company of cutler hammer)

Quote:
Why carry up to six other brands of circuit breakers when the industry's most reputable brand, Cutler-Hammer, is all you need?

Coming in both one and two-pole configurations, both the CL (one-inch) and the CHQ (3/4-inch) breakers are Classified by Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. for use in place of the breakers listed on the panelboard. In addition to a UL rating, they also come with an outstanding 15-year warranty.
so, based on that, a BR breaker is not acceptable in your Murray panel. As such, your installation is not legal as it is and alteration, unless it is to a legally acceptable situation, is not recommended.


marc, here is something you might be able to use:
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...FILE&dID=71954

and this:

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=273968

Now, since you state you bought the house new, if you want to get into the legal argument with the builder, it would appear you may have legal recourse for the situation you are now faced with. Very likely it would be more expensive to do this but still a possibility.
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:26 PM   #20
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Nap.,

Thanks for the link that did bring up to modern listing now we know where we stand now.

Merci encore Nap !!

{ Thanks again Nap }


Merci,Marc
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junkcollector View Post
Provided the tandems are OK in your panel, you should be able to replace one of the double pole breakers with a quad breaker. (2 doubles or a double and 2 singles in one)

A Murray panel should have Murray (Siemens) breakers in it, not cutler hammer BR.
I agree with your contention that (Ideally) each panel should be matched with its own breakers. But the OP has another issue. Since the panel is (already) full, it's a safe bet that the panel will not stand the extra load. Specifically, Cutler Hammer has a warning sticker on all tandem (or thin) breakers that they are "Not CTL compatible, and are for replacement purposes only") The only safe and practical option is to run a sub panel (Not off the existing one). As Scuba Dave (Poster #2) stated!
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:40 PM   #22
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Just because the panel is full of breakers does not mean it is approaching overload. The reliable method would be to perform a demand load calculation.
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
I agree with your contention that (Ideally) each panel should be matched with its own breakers. But the OP has another issue. Since the panel is (already) full, it's a safe bet that the panel will not stand the extra load. Specifically, Cutler Hammer has a warning sticker on all tandem (or thin) breakers that they are "Not CTL compatible, and are for replacement purposes only") The only safe and practical option is to run a sub panel (Not off the existing one). As Scuba Dave (Poster #2) stated!
I have to call you on that statement, there are two types of twin breakers, one is for loadcenters built prior to 1968 which do not have the notched bus stabs that current production loadcenters built since 1968 do have, & are "Non-CTL" ,then there are the current twin breakers which have a rejection tab that will only allow them to be installed in a notched bus stab a "CTL panelboard", a panel will in it's catalog number* and/or have a label stating the allowable number of twin breakers.

* Knowing how to decipher the number is another thing...
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Just because the panel is full of breakers does not mean it is approaching overload. The reliable method would be to perform a demand load calculation.
Big difference between overloaded as far as electrical load VS too many circuits as allowed by Mfg
I'm not sure on the limit on the number of circuits - possibly due to how much room there is to actually run wire in the box ?

Not to mention the point being brought up that the wrong breakers are installed

I have a 200a panel & a sub 100a panel 3' to the left just for more room in running circuits
Then another 100a sub in the new addition



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Old 12-26-2009, 09:27 PM   #25
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Dave.,

Normal max number of circuits they are allowed is 42 circuit from one load centre but that can change all it depending on the model number it may have restriction like example a common 30/40 panel which it mean we can have max of 30 full size or 20 full size and ten tandems breaker so total circuits is 40.

I know the NEC code now no longer have restriction of 42 circuits however many states still stick to 42 rules the Canada verison do not have any limit they can go many as 84 in one load centre.

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:35 PM   #26
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SD, I did think that Sparkplug was talking about ampacity, not breaker spaces. I may have made the wrong assumption.

The reason I had heard about the 42 circuit limit was a fire caused by an overheated panel. IIRC the enclosure was a wooden box.
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:44 PM   #27
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Ah, I see
I would think that a 200a panel can handle 200a...no matter how many circuits are installed
Heck I will have more circuits then anyone I know

A wooden enclosure that went around the breaker panel ?

I was not sure a 20 space panel could handle 40 circuits
And saw the post that it was only rated for 20 full space breakers

Seems very strange the house is 6 years old & only a 20 space panel installed
We bought this house in 2003 & it had a 200a 40 space panel



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Old 12-26-2009, 09:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Ah, I see
I would think that a 200a panel can handle 200a...no matter how many circuits are installed
Heck I will have more circuits then anyone I know

A wooden enclosure that went around the breaker panel ?

I was not sure a 20 space panel could handle 40 circuits
And saw the post that it was only rated for 20 full space breakers

Seems very strange the house is 6 years old & only a 20 space panel installed
We bought this house in 2003 & it had a 200a 40 space panel
Historywise yes it was wooden enclosure around the old fuse box I think it in one of the famous place in NYC either motel or theatere one of the two but plus what more they used old fashon T conductor the forerunner of the THWN / THHN modern counterpart so there were few codes were changed from that event so it was restricted to 42 circuit IIRC it have about 60 something circuit in there.

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:16 PM   #29
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Origin of the 42 circuit rule.

According to Anthony Montuori, Chief Inspector for the NY Board of Fire Underwriters, a lighting panel was restricted to 42 circuits as the result of a 1928 fire at the Waldorf Astoria. The cause of that fire was determined to be from an electric panel wired with type "R" cable whose overall heat load caused the fire. The electrical apparatus of the time could safely handle a 42 circuit panel while a larger panel could not.
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Old 12-27-2009, 07:42 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post

Seems very strange the house is 6 years old & only a 20 space panel installed
We bought this house in 2003 & it had a 200a 40 space panel
Not strange, really. Cheap GC, cheap electrician, or both.

IMO, no new installation should have tandem breakers.
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