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Old 05-25-2010, 06:40 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post

And I'll check the calibration on my BS filter, sometimes it drifts out of adjustment. . .

Donc { Hey } Yoyizit here the meter you looking for .,,,



Merci,Marc

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Old 05-25-2010, 06:44 PM   #32
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Donc { Hey } Yoyizit here the meter you looking for .,,,



Merci,Marc
Here in the DC area that needle would be pegged continuously.
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:47 PM   #33
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Donc Yoyizit I think we better stop right there before mod squad nail our butt.

Merci,Marc
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Old 05-26-2010, 03:32 PM   #34
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Well, glad you guys are having fun in my absence. Today I:
1. Cut the power;
2. Disconnected my ceiling fan;
3. Installed new AFCI breaker;
4. Powered up


So, can I assume that my fan was causing the breaker to trip? It's still disconnected, because DH will be pleased if I can get the light fixture and recs working on the circuit, the fan can wait.

I have an issue that is worthy of some further discussion, I hope:

When the breaker first failed the fan was on 'high'. The fan was a open-box and we had to buy are remote for it, because it came with no controls. I installed power directly to it and use the remote, exclusively, to control it.
So when it is reconnected is it on 'high'? And is that causing the problem?

On a better note, I completed (almost) an install of two circuits to my front porch exterior. Two ceiling fans are cooling things off and I can plug in all sorts of stuff!

Thanks for the thoughts!
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leah Frances View Post
1. Cut the power;
2. Disconnected my ceiling fan;
3. Installed new AFCI breaker;
4. Powered up


So, can I assume that my fan was causing the breaker to trip?
1

When the breaker first failed the fan was on 'high'. The fan was a open-box and we had to buy are remote for it, because it came with no controls. I installed power directly to it and use the remote, exclusively, to control it.
So when it is reconnected is it on 'high'? And is that causing the problem?
1 Why not a combo of an oversensitive AFCI and a fan?
Ceiling fans are supposed to pull 0.5A so this doesn't meet the Siemens standard for 'current draw + arc' trip.
Fan motors don't use brushes [?], so no arcing. You have a link to your fan?
The speed control ckt may generate something that looks like an arc to the AFCI.

You could mount your fan on a test stand, blades horiz., and hook it up with clip leads or Romex and test it with the new AFCI.
Try it with all else off on the circuit, then all else on.

We could make this into a mini-series. I'll get Julia Roberts to play you, if she's available.

Last edited by Yoyizit; 05-26-2010 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:27 PM   #36
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http://www.buyreiker.com/default.aspx?page=6 Ceiling fan.

FYI - Square D load center and breakers.

Also, I believe that the combo that caused the fail was: ceiling fan on high + carpet cleaner (11Amps) + sensitive breaker (?) = fail.

My neighbor is an aspiring electrician, so he is psyched about rigging up a mock test.
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:16 AM   #37
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Carpet cleaner or other similar items such as vacuum cleaners are prime suspects with nuisance tripping of AFCI breakers.

Not sure about the fan remote receiver's contribution to your problems.
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:16 AM   #38
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From
http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

this link
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090262471
says that 800w or more [7A] of suddenly applied load can cause nuisance trips.

"Nuisance tripping" takes place when an AFCI generates a trip signal with no actual arcing taking place. . . .that with no stipulation prohibiting the separation of lighting and general-use outlets with regard to the branch circuits that feed them, it is common practice to combine these loads within rooms. It is then possible and probable that a single load or group of loads exceeding 800 watts can be simultaneously activated from a control station, thus creating a nuisance trip of the corresponding AFCI breaker. "

Last edited by Yoyizit; 05-27-2010 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:36 AM   #39
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False trips (in the past) are one reason some people do not use GFCI's to this day
I've already had AFCI's trip due to some older lamps
There is nothing wrong with the lamps, they cause a false trip
This is going to lead to more people refusing to use AFCI's or removing them after inspection



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Old 05-27-2010, 01:12 PM   #40
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There is at least one AFCI patent, possibly assigned to Pass & Seymour, that counts pulses to detect an arc
but does so outside of the part of the cycle that dimmers use to chop up the sine wave, so here is at least one connection between fans with speed controls [a sort of dimmer] and AFCI tripping.

So AFCIs can have trouble discriminating valid arcs from the pulses that dimmers use during normal operation.
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Old 05-28-2010, 04:32 AM   #41
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What is an AFCI?


I know about GFCI's but what are AFCI's?
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Old 05-28-2010, 08:07 AM   #42
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Arc Fault Circuit Interrupts. Arcing is the main cause of electrical house fires - the AFCIs are now part of NEC requirements because they help keep us safe.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:14 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtogle View Post
I know about GFCI's but what are AFCI's?
Here's one take on what they are
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...=&oq=&gs_rfai=

You will probably have more false trips if you have dimmers or speed controls, home automation circuitry, surge protectors, motors, old refrigerators, old lamps, old switches, current draw on that branch circuit of more than 5 amps, and you live near a radio station.

How many false trips per year are too much?

The good news is that if you rent or buy a $600 device, after some tedious troubleshooting you have a good chance of finding the problem, and then you get to buy new electrical appliances to replace the old ones that seemed to be working.

Do the words 'cash cow' come to mind?

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Old 06-07-2010, 05:17 PM   #44
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OK - I disconnected the fan and replaced the AFCI and had sucess. Yeah! DH talked me into re-connecting the fan and it worked. Until the he adjusted the speed of the fan - circuit failed when I turned on an additional light.

So, I replaced the fan with a new one today - popped in a new AFCI ($$) and circuit held til I tried turning on the additional light. I inspected the light switch and there appears to be no problem there. I guess I need to pull the light fixture? I'm guessing I have some arc problem - troubleshooting = SUCKS!
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Old 06-07-2010, 05:28 PM   #45
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Pulled light fixture - no visible damage all connections secure. Breaker is all trippy all the time. What do I do next?
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