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Old 12-03-2015, 08:54 PM   #31
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They forgot 'pulling a permit'.
You're right, pulling a permit is a mistake. It gets the man all up in your face.

I don't use AFCIs and I don't use tamper proof receptacles. I do use GFCIs where appropriate. The others don't really apply to any work I've done.

There is #14 in my attic (I didn't put it there) coming off the receptacle up there (wired with #12, attached to the 20-amp bedroom circuit) to power a single light socket (10-watt LED). There is also #14 in my garage attached to the 20-amp general purpose circuit powering four T8 fixtures.

I didn't install any of it, and the inspector didn't call it out when I bought the house. I might fix it eventually, I might not, but I'm not losing any sleep over it in the meantime. For the garage, when I install my subpanel, I'll just put the lights on a 15A breaker, use the existing wiring, and call it good.

Last edited by Syberia; 12-03-2015 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:05 PM   #32
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Wrong circuit breakers and #14 wire on a 20 amp circuit are the same thing.
I can not give any statistics of any type of electrical fires.
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:08 PM   #33
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Wrong circuit breakers and #14 wire on a 20 amp circuit are the same thing.
I meant using the wrong circuit breaker in a panel, like a GE breaker in a Siemens panel. I've seen buss bar failures from things like that.
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Old 12-03-2015, 10:30 PM   #34
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Then tell me, how many fires have been caused by 14 awg wire on 20 amp circuit vs bad connections, back-stabbed devices, wrong circuit breakers, or even worse things that people do? Because I have never heard of fires or failures caused by a 14AWG wire on a 20 amp circuit.

Yes, it's not good, but I do not think it is the worst problem out there.
Near as I can tell, there are 3 reasons for the 15 amp limit on #14, the 20 amp limit on #12 and to a lesser degree, the 30 amp limit on #10.

The code-making persons years ago were a bit more intelligent and had way more actual field experience than the clowns in power these days.

1) They knew that Uncle Bob would replace a 15 amp breaker with a 20 in order to keep it from tripping so much. Same with replacing a 20 with a 30.

2) To a far lesser degree, no one ever pays attention to multiple conductors bundled together in a house. It's common to see more than 20 current-carrying conductors neatly bundled together coming out of a panel. Further, these conductors are surrounded by the building insulation.....the heat has no place to go. This is minor though; very rarely are conductors loaded heavily for a long time in a house.

3) Attics are HOT in the summer. I bet that very few people have ever taken high ambient temperature into account when sizing NM cable. Same thing with cable that's installed between the insulation and the siding.

Rob.
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Old 12-04-2015, 08:20 AM   #35
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????????
I did not advise using 14AWG wire on a 20 amp circuit, I said it is not a huge problem and there is no need to worry about it so much; there are more important dangers to worry about first.
Do you really feel qualified to give advice like this? A month ago you were having trouble installing a wire nut.
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Old 12-04-2015, 08:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Syberia View Post
I didn't install any of it, and the inspector didn't call it out when I bought the house. I might fix it eventually, I might not, but I'm not losing any sleep over it in the meantime. For the garage, when I install my subpanel, I'll just put the lights on a 15A breaker, use the existing wiring, and call it good.
The inspector was a generalist and may not have even seen the issues. Some states do not even have a licensing or training requirement to be a home inspector. Even if they did see issues there job is to report them. Whether they are corrected is between the buyers and sellers. That was not a code inspection.
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Old 12-04-2015, 03:55 PM   #37
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Do you really feel qualified to give advice like this? A month ago you were having trouble installing a wire nut.
oh for god sake shut up about the damn wire nuts
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Old 12-04-2015, 06:55 PM   #38
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oh for god sake shut up about the damn wire nuts
Getting a little touchy about a subject you persisted with, ad nauseum. LOL
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:03 PM   #39
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Getting a little touchy about a subject you persisted with, ad nauseum. LOL
look I was only talking about a topic in a thread for a while, you people just keep pestering me all over the forum with your damn jokes and crap for months afterward! If you didn't like the thread then you did not need to participate in the thread. But you do not need to keep on trolling me for that thread even after it's been long gone! So what if it was a little crazy; there were misunderstandings and it went out of whack; everyone has some trouble or misunderstandings then they get started; but it's long gone now so why do you have to keep on pestering and trolling about it! Just forget about it FGS!!
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:06 PM   #40
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and look I am not advising ignoring the problem of 14 AWG wire on 20 amp breakers, I am merely saying that it is not extremely dangerous as people suggest; there are a lot worse things out there that people don't talk about as much. No, of course, it is unsafe and it should be fixed when you can, but you do not need to loose sleep over it or smash up your house trying to fix it if you must smash up your house to do so... you people think I am suggesting not worrying about it at all, no, I am just saying it is not that bad, but still, worry about it, just not as much.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:22 PM   #41
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and look I am not advising ignoring the problem of 14 AWG wire on 20 amp breakers, I am merely saying that it is not extremely dangerous as people suggest; there are a lot worse things out there that people don't talk about as much. No, of course, it is unsafe and it should be fixed when you can, but you do not need to loose sleep over it or smash up your house trying to fix it if you must smash up your house to do so... you people think I am suggesting not worrying about it at all, no, I am just saying it is not that bad, but still, worry about it, just not as much.
How do you know it is not an issue without knowing the loads that are being imposed upon it or the ambient conditions around it? What condition is the insulation in? What material is the insulation; fabric over rubber or 90 degree C thermoplastic?
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Last edited by Jim Port; 12-04-2015 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:24 PM   #42
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and look I am not advising ignoring the problem of 14 AWG wire on 20 amp breakers, I am merely saying that it is not extremely dangerous as people suggest; there are a lot worse things out there that people don't talk about as much. No, of course, it is unsafe and it should be fixed when you can, but you do not need to loose sleep over it or smash up your house trying to fix it if you must smash up your house to do so... you people think I am suggesting not worrying about it at all, no, I am just saying it is not that bad, but still, worry about it, just not as much.
Here is a question longed for answering. Poiihy are you an electrician by trade? Or just an arm-chair, google-searching, electrician wanna-be? I have NO doubt,........... others want to know. And calm down little one....... it's just the internet. :-)
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:27 PM   #43
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How do you know it is not an issue without knowing the loads that are being imposed upon it or the ambient conditions around it?
The load wouldn't be more than 20 amps...

I did not say it was not an issue, I said it was not a big issue. It still is an issue.

You people have made a big thing out of nothing; let's just say it is an issue; it does not matter whether it is big or small, it is an issue. Now forget it.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:30 PM   #44
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Here is a question longed for answering. Poiihy are you an electrician by trade? Or just an arm-chair, google-searching, electrician wanna-be? I have NO doubt,........... others want to know. And calm down little one....... it's just the internet. :-)
First I want to know who you are. According to your name, you are neither a DIYer, nor a professional. Then what are you, and what are you doing here? You do not contribute anything to this forum as far as I can see; you only attack/troll people or complain about something.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:34 PM   #45
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Ohhhhhhhhhh, I'm sure I know A LOT more than you do about electricity. :-) Guess there is no answer to the question then. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.... think I got it. Oh and it's just that 95% of the rhetoric you post is mostly wrong... that's why I ask.
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