12-2 Wire That Is Actualy 14-2 - Electrical - Page 4 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:06 AM   #46
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tincan, we do NOT want to go there.

#14 wire is generally only acceptable on a 15 amp circuit and #12 on a 20 amp circuit. There are exceptions but generally a homeowner is not going to need nor understand the applications.

Please do not confuse the audience we generally deal with.

trust me, I am guilty of it myself and it generally affords no satisfaction whether you are right or not.
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post

#14 wire is generally only acceptable on a 15 amp circuit and #12 on a 20 amp circuit. There are exceptions but generally a homeowner is not going to need nor understand the applications.

Please do not confuse the audience we generally deal with.

trust me, I am guilty of it myself and it generally affords no satisfaction whether you are right or not.
I 1000% agree!

IMO much of Articles 430, 440 and 630 have NO place in DIY work.
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:43 PM   #48
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What we don't want to discuss Taps again ?



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Old 06-07-2009, 09:20 PM   #49
 
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My goodness nap and Speedy Petey. When you say “we do NOT want to go there” about my answer to Mike Dolton just who is/are the ‘we’ you speak of? I didn’t realize that only simple or incomplete answers were welcome at the DIY Chatroom.

I read all the posts to Mike Dolton’s question.

Ron6519 was first to come up with a plausible answer “It's probably just a change in covering” (jacket). However, the average DIYer wouldn’t know from the bend test with only yellow romex on hand.

hayewe farm posts a chart from the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas
which lists the Maximum amps for chassis wiring as 41 for 12 AWG. I wonder how many DIYers read this “NOTE: For installations that need to conform to the National Electrical Code, you must use their guidelines. Contact your local electrician to find out what is legal!”

OH and EXCUSE me if I wonder out loud if Yoyizit didn’t accuse HD of FRAUD with their statement “If you buy in qty's as large as HD does you can tell anyone to label anything any way you want it.”


I stand behind my 3 answers:
1. Verify your wire has the UL (Underwriters Laboratory) mark.

2. Consider whether your wire strippers are mismarked, (perhaps just worn out) or just simple user error...


Sorry, I didn’t list #3 as an EXCEPTION… HOWEVER Mr. Dolton didn’t state what he was wiring…


3. Check NEC Article 310.16 and you'll see 14 AWG is rated 20 amp PROVIDED it meets the requirements of 240.4 D.


Speedy Petey states “IMO much of Articles 430, 440 and 630 have NO place in DIY work.”

I wonder, Petey, if you’ll agree that Art 430.248 should be quoted for that DIYer hooking up a pump motor?

How about Art 440 if they are wiring for an Air Conditioner and want some tips on disconnecting means?


And Art. 630? I’ll bet there are plenty of DIYers that want to own a welder.

Heck with this logic lets also ban Art. 314 concerning, among other things BOX MOUNTING and BOX FILL. Do you think DIYers would be shocked to learn you can only put so many wires in a box or conduit?

I could go on…. BUT I’ll end with this last thought.

nap you commented that my attempted complete answer would “confuse the audience we generally deal with. trust me, I am guilty of it myself and it generally affords no satisfaction whether you are right or not.”

Well then, I will be the judge of what satisfaction I gain from any answer I post on this site. I will also post any answer as accurately as I see fit. I know there are many that ARE looking for the complete answer.

Thank You.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:24 PM   #50
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You are giving people the thought that they can use #14 on a 20a circuit. For DIY people you do not want to give that impression

It's really as simple as that
Feel free to post another 10 paragraph diatribe tho



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Old 06-07-2009, 09:30 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tincan44 View Post
I wonder, Petey, if you’ll agree that Art 430.248 should be quoted for that DIYer hooking up a pump motor?

How about Art 440 if they are wiring for an Air Conditioner and want some tips on disconnecting means?


And Art. 630? I’ll bet there are plenty of DIYers that want to own a welder.

Heck with this logic lets also ban Art. 314 concerning, among other things BOX MOUNTING and BOX FILL. Do you think DIYers would be shocked to learn you can only put so many wires in a box or conduit?

I could go on…. BUT I’ll end with this last thought.
Don't dissect my post or put words in my mouth. I never said to "ban" anything.
I will admit, my choice of the word "much" should have read "some".

My point was regarding using "non-standard" breaker sizing, such as the 250% rule for motors, and 630.11 for welders. I never said anyone would not want a welder. I did also mention just those three articles. I said nothing about chapter 3.
I should have known someone would take my post the wrong way and nit pick it.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:37 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tincan44 View Post
3. Check NEC Article 310.16 and you'll see 14 AWG is rated 20 amp PROVIDED it meets the requirements of 240.4 D.
This is a VERY misleading statement due to the simple fact of what 240.4(D) says. ESPECIALLY for a DIY'er.
Unless specifically allowed in certain special applications #14 MUST be limited to 15 amps. The "special applications" in 240.4(E) & (G) do not apply to DIY work in my oh so very humble opinion.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:59 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tincan44 View Post
My goodness nap and Speedy Petey. When you say “we do NOT want to go there” about my answer to Mike Dolton just who is/are the ‘we’ you speak of? I didn’t realize that only simple or incomplete answers were welcome at the DIY Chatroom.
Jeez... calm down. You took those comments way out to left field. They meant nothing personal by it. In residential DIY situations, it is usually best to just keep it simple. Sure, we can apply various exceptions, but for people who are asking questions here, they usually just need a clear answer. If a welder requires a 50 A circuit, might as well run 6-2. If an A/C units specifies #12 wire but a 30 A breaker, run #10 instead.

And box fill and general wiring methods are all encompassing requirements, not specific exceptions.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:02 AM   #54
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Yeah 277


Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
Jeez... calm down. You took those comments way out to left field. They meant nothing personal by it. In residential DIY situations, it is usually best to just keep it simple. Sure, we can apply various exceptions, but for people who are asking questions here, they usually just need a clear answer. If a welder requires a 50 A circuit, might as well run 6-2. If an A/C units specifies #12 wire but a 30 A breaker, run #10 instead.

And box fill and general wiring methods are all encompassing requirements, not specific exceptions.

Keep it simple I agree, too many people on here try to prove what they know and really don't care about the DIYER.

It's like back in the shop days again so and so knows this so and so don't know, it gets old after a while.
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:03 PM   #55
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What we don't want to discuss Taps again ?
that would be an affirmative.

it was fun but I have to watch myself with the DIY site.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:41 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dolton View Post
my father got some 12-2 house wire from Home Depot, checked the wire and it is actually 14-2 according to the wire striper and the coating is yellow instead of white, he asked the attendent and that is all they sell. we have done a lot of wiring, is there a new standard for the wire now, they all sell the smaller wire.
Tinman, I'm all for an abundance of information, but you did not address the OPs concerns/questions at all.

Simple question, simple answer.

Then on to booze and small blocks.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:42 PM   #57
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Keep it on topic and try to temper down the personal bravado please.

I prefer to not have to delete any more posts.

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Old 12-27-2009, 09:34 PM   #58
 
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in regards to 12 - 2 that looks like 14 - 2


I have wired many homes and am well familiar with the wire gauges and their sizes. I wired my home 20 years ago with all 12 -2 and 12 -3 respectably. 5 years ago we remodeled the kitchen - it was the only portion not rewired in the initial rewire project.
I went to Lowes and purchased 2 rolls of 12 - 2.
I noticed that the entire cable itself was thinner than I was used to. I took a 2' sample piece of 12-2 out of the earlier rewire and a 2' piece of the new cable purchased at lowes.
If the newer wire is to be actual 12 -2 then the wire that was stamped as 12-2 from 20 years ago has to be 10-2 !!! That is how much difference there is.
While I believe whole heartedly in the fact that we live in a society of bribes, scandals and cover - ups , I also believe that we are now getting less bang for our buck than we were once getting. I still have the wire to prove it !! Candy bars are smaller, and I also believe that the lesser octane gasoline that we are putting in our tanks is actually diluted and supposed to actually be the higher octane that we are spending so much more for.
I still have the wire to prove it ...


Thanks - 3 way
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Old 12-27-2009, 09:43 PM   #59
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the "entire cable" is irrelevant. It is the diameter of the conductor and the dimension for any given wire size has been standardized since 1857. Newer materials used for insulation have caused the overall cable to become thinner than it was but again, that is irrelevant.
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:21 AM   #60
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There are five pages of replies to a post that essentially said, "I can't strip my 12 awg wire unless I use the 14 awg hole in my strippers." I don't think there is any "wire stripper hole size" standard that can be referenced.

Personally, I built my custom wirestrippers by cutting into some live 12 awg wires accidentally. There are no numbers next to the hole, but they work perfectly. I'm not suggesting this method to others.

I also quit smoking by catching pneumonia and being delirious in a hospital bed for over a week. This is just another handy tip that works, but isn't normally suggested for general use.
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