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Old 09-03-2020, 11:49 AM   #31
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


Hmmm I see critical tools missing, concentric flare tool, deburing tool, torque wrench and flair gauge and of course a micron gauge.
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:12 PM   #32
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


These el cheapo minisplits will likely last as long as a cheap window shaker ( under 7-10 yrs ) and then spring a leak and lose freon ( maybe sooner ) or you won't be able to get parts for them from China.

You will then have people blowing off the freon rather than recover it and slapping another one in. They will be disposable just like window shakers.

If you buy a quality Mitsubishi or Daikin etc then it may last 20 yrs or longer.
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:13 PM   #33
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


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Hmmm I see critical tools missing, concentric flare tool, deburing tool, torque wrench and flair gauge and of course a micron gauge.
Didn't have to make flares, but good point. I did buy the kit in advance thinking I would have to - harbor freight, 20 bucks I think.

Torque wrench was over 30 bucks, forgot about that.

Also the tube bender for the line set, that was 10 bucks at harbor freight.

Micron gauge unnecessary for homeowner DIY for Pioneer. At least per their own installation manual. They don't even have you do a leak test.

I really want one though. I just can't prioritize the purchase yet. But it will happen because I have a strong interest in getting it right. But I'll settle, for now.
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:19 PM   #34
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


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Micron gauge unnecessary for homeowner DIY for Pioneer. At least per their own installation manual. They don't even have you do a leak test.

Now, i'm sure many systems are put in without using a vacuum gauge and work fine.

Still necessary to do the job properly imo - have no idea otherwise if the lines have been properly evacuated and are dry.
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:21 PM   #35
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


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These el cheapo minisplits will likely last as long as a cheap window shaker ( under 7-10 yrs ) and then spring a leak and lose freon ( maybe sooner ) or you won't be able to get parts for them from China.

You will then have people blowing off the freon rather than recover it and slapping another one in. They will be disposable just like window shakers.

If you buy a quality Mitsubishi or Daikin etc then it may last 20 yrs or longer.
Is Daikin really that good? I was checking out their prices and was surprised that their units don't seem to be too much more than Pioneers.

I might go with them next time, if they're that dependable.
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:22 PM   #36
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


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Didn't have to make flares, but good point. I did buy the kit in advance thinking I would have to - harbor freight, 20 bucks I think.

Torque wrench was over 30 bucks, forgot about that.

Also the tube bender for the line set, that was 10 bucks at harbor freight.

Micron gauge unnecessary for homeowner DIY for Pioneer. At least per their own installation manual. They don't even have you do a leak test.

I really want one though. I just can't prioritize the purchase yet. But it will happen because I have a strong interest in getting it right. But I'll settle, for now.
Those cheap DIY minis have horrible instructions. Some even tell you to not use a vacuum pump at all, but purge the lines instead. Which technically speaking is illegal. I’ve seen where many don’t show any sort of leak test, which isn’t a good idea.
Micron gauge should always be used during evacuation.
The precharged linesets always tend to leak and cause problems.
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:26 PM   #37
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


I would like to thank everyone again for their input.

I know full well going into this project that a warranty wont be available and I fully accept that. When something needs repaired in the future I can handle making the diagnosis and carrying out the repair myself.

The issue still exists of where one can obtain a Daikin Heat Recovery outdoor unit. I've put multiple requests out to all the mini-split dealers I can find online to see if I can purchase a RELQ72TATJA through them, the response always comes back "That line is unavailable for purchase through us."

So it seems once you try to buy anything more sophisticated than their basic units you start falling short.

My next idea would to get a list of dealers in my area off the Daikin website and contact them directly to try and make the purchase, I doubt this will be of any success either since these people want to sell you the unit along with an installation. Since they make their money from the installation charges I doubt they would be inclined to sell me the equipment outright.

Anyone have any other ideas? I might just have to hope and pray my ebay watchlists get some hits.
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Old 09-03-2020, 01:59 PM   #38
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


Daikin is a HUGE HUGE company like Siemens and they make rooftop units and own Goodman and Amana.

Generally the very big companies like Lennox and Trane and Carrier make good units as they spends lots of $$ on advertising and don't want negative internet publicity.

It is not in Daikins best interest to build cheap crap and get a bad reputation and have to spend a fortune in advertising and PR to get their customers back.

Janitrol/Goodman did that 20 years ago with builders grade units and learned some hard lessons and now is better.
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Old 09-04-2020, 05:55 AM   #39
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


One of the knowledgeable contributors to this forum, sorry do not remember which one. Liked Daikin and stated that the copper used in the coils was thicker than the lesser brands, was a selling point for me.


Also doing my endless you tube watching I noticed that the more competent pros were mostly working on Mitsubishi, Fujitsu or Daikin. That speaks volumes.



As far as not needing the tools, the Daikin kit I purchased included the flair gauge. Of the 2 premade lineset I had several flairs failed the go no go gauge. Also the flair nuts on the pre made linesets are not substantial enough and should be replaced with the factory supplied nuts. Do not know about the other brands but the Daikin supplied flair nuts are twice as heavy as the ready made line nuts!
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Old 09-04-2020, 07:15 AM   #40
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


I read that Daikin owns Amana and Goodman and there are 3 quality tiers now.

Daikin is #1 Amana #2 and Goodman #3.

Like Cadillac, Buick and your Chevy in GM's lines.

I suspect they are a very clever company and trying to gobble up a huge share of the market so maybe for a few years they will drop the price of their mini splits.

They have only been in the North American market for under 5 years but are gaining ground quickly. We now see lots of Daikin rooftop Commercial units and that is a direct threat to Lennox, Carrier, York and Trane who had most of the market.
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Old 09-04-2020, 07:39 AM   #41
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


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I read that Daikin owns Amana and Goodman and there are 3 quality tiers now.

Daikin is #1 Amana #2 and Goodman #3.

Like Cadillac, Buick and your Chevy in GM's lines.

I suspect they are a very clever company and trying to gobble up a huge share of the market so maybe for a few years they will drop the price of their mini splits.

They have only been in the North American market for under 5 years but are gaining ground quickly. We now see lots of Daikin rooftop Commercial units and that is a direct threat to Lennox, Carrier, York and Trane who had most of the market.
Daikin has already gained ground, and have pulled in a huge share of the North American market. They spent a ton of money on their new plant in Texas.

https://daikintexastechnologypark.com/

They have products for every part of the market, save for big chillers. Which they may have Iíve just never seen one. Everything from mini splits to big large tonnage packaged units to VRF.
And they have a deal through United Refrigeration to distribute minisplits and VRF equipment.
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Old 09-04-2020, 07:45 AM   #42
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


The first company to come out with an easy to disassemble inside head for cleaning will get my business. Or a blower wheel that is not a breeding ground for mold.
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:10 AM   #43
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


It looks like they are into water chillers up to 2500 tons as well. Other than Absorption chillers for Industry they seem to be into everything HVAC.

Vav boxes, air handlers you name it they are into it.

https://www.daikinapplied.com/products/chiller-products
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Old 09-04-2020, 09:46 AM   #44
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


I would prefer at this point to put in Daikin equipment, I have always liked the brand name over all others but specifications and performance should always outweigh any brand name bias.

Daikin supplies single-port branch boxes (BSQ_T)
Where as Mitsubishi only has multi-port branch boxes.
This is a win for Daikin in my book.

Looking at the engineering manuals, these commercial heat recovery units can turn down all the way to 11% RELQ72TATJA
The Mitsubishi PURY-EP72TNU-A can only reach 15%

This is another win for Daikin and their larger units can turn down even lower.

The one specification where Mitsubishi takes the win is minimum connectable capacity. The Mitsubishi unit has a minimum connected capacity of 50% where as the Daikin is 70%.

This means with the Daikin system I will have to oversize one of my heads to reach the 70% minimum capacity but since the turndown ratio is so low this wont matter one bit. I also live in Arizona where we can see average temperatures over 115 degrees so having a little extra BTU available can come in handy during the hottest time of the year.

Still though, it doesn't seem very likely that I can even obtain the equipment.
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Old 09-04-2020, 10:13 AM   #45
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Re: How/Where To Purchase Equipment?


Yeah I worked in a large hospital and then a Convention centre and a 35 story high rise office tower with BAS Building automation systems and vav boxes and a heat recovery system in the hospital.

We had Siemens and Johnson Controls BAS systems and the high end VFD tech is really fascinating.

It would be nice to get access to the truly commercial tech units but they would need a supply chain and distributor network and maybe the demand is not there for very high end units. It is all about quantity moved etc.

Plus they are very sensitive about their reputation and don't want some Joe's heat em and cheat em hackers getting their mitts on that equipment.
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