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Old 11-14-2014, 09:00 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by concretemasonry View Post
You can split hairs if you want to complicate a classically simple situation.

There is a reason for joints in paver installations and they are minimal in the end as far as drainage. - Proven for years of performance.

Dick
How am I splitting the hair when I suggest a simpler solution:
-one slope across the blue line and a drain channel at the bottom of the line sloped across the yellow line.
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:20 AM   #17
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When I see a landscaping drawing that shows dimensions to the 1/100th of an inch it suggests being overly precise unless you think you can build to 1/100th of an inch.

A contractor will automatically bid high ot just turn his back when he sees that. He might be afraid there is an extra grain of sand or two in a joint on the patio when it was inspected prior to payment.

Just an observation.

Dick
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by concretemasonry View Post
When I see a landscaping drawing that shows dimensions to the 1/100th of an inch it suggests being overly precise unless you think you can build to 1/100th of an inch.

A contractor will automatically bid high ot just turn his back when he sees that. He might be afraid there is an extra grain of sand or two in a joint on the patio when it was inspected prior to payment.

Just an observation.

Dick
You are off topic here Dick! If you have comments on the solutions that I posted above they are welcome.

If you ask me you are no better than the guy who gave you dimensions of 1/100th of an inch. You are too judgmental and you are assuming that your potential client WANTS the things to be very precise. It might be just that he forgot to adjusts Sketchup to show dimensions in feet. Also it might strike you that the guy grew up with the metric system, he measured everything in centimeters and he introduced those measurements in Sketchup which was configured to use inches hence the two decimals. It takes your potential client 30 seconds to fix that diagram and to find a less judgmental contractor. It takes you a month to find the next client. I would definitely not pick you or recommend you for a job (also just an observation)
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:33 AM   #19
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You are off topic here Dick! If you have comments on the solutions that I posted above they are welcome.

If you ask me you are no better than the guy who gave you dimensions of 1/100th of an inch. You are too judgmental and you are assuming that your potential client WANTS the things to be very precise.
OP, that is exactly what you put on your sketch / drawing, precision to the hundredths of an inch. I guess they don't teach significant digit anymore in school, since the slide rule was replaced with a calculator.
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:14 AM   #20
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OP, that is exactly what you put on your sketch / drawing, precision to the hundredths of an inch. I guess they don't teach significant digit anymore in school, since the slide rule was replaced with a calculator.
Obviously you did not understand a iota of what I replied
It is not that I wanted it to be acurrate within a tenth of an inch
It is because I measured in centimeters and 1cm is 0.393701in
So if I enter 100cm or 1 meter I am going to get 39.3701 in
This does not imply that I wanted the measurements to be accurate to 4 decimals

To respond to your irony, I guess you never got your hands on a drawing program
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:07 PM   #21
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If you really used a good program, you are able to define the precision of dimensions and whether they are in feet and inches or decimals. Some programs are just the freebies and there are also more polished programs for presentations.

All anyone can do is look at what you provided and make an assumptions. If you want feet and inches, give that information or just feet with no misleading decimals (rounded to the nearest significant figure). There is an implied measing in the 1/100th of an inch. Since I an just an egineer, I was lead by what was presented. - It almost looks like one of the land surveying programs that I have used where extreme accuracy is required.

Dick
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:10 PM   #22
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pavers will not shed water like solid surface, just keep that in mind. also depends on type of pavers. i would perhaps grade (slope) the earth perpendicular to back of house about 1/4 bubble(min) on 4ft level. i would then place plastic sheeting over the earth and then fill to desired height with stone or crushed granite (maybe 1-2"), and then add layer of sand (finished to proper height and slope), then finally your pavers. why you ask? because a lot of water will go down and not run off (unless you have ridiculous slope for pavers). the slope layer of plastic is the final destination of the water thus you want the water to move out and away.....

not sure how much water you get, but remember my 1st sentence above, etc.
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:32 PM   #23
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pavers will not shed water like solid surface, just keep that in mind. also depends on type of pavers. i would perhaps grade (slope) the earth perpendicular to back of house about 1/4 bubble(min) on 4ft level. i would then place plastic sheeting over the earth and then fill to desired height with stone or crushed granite (maybe 1-2"), and then add layer of sand (finished to proper height and slope), then finally your pavers. why you ask? because a lot of water will go down and not run off (unless you have ridiculous slope for pavers). the slope layer of plastic is the final destination of the water thus you want the water to move out and away.....

not sure how much water you get, but remember my 1st sentence above, etc.
Hi Joe
I thought of that too but I read somewhere (I believe it was on pavingexpert.com) that it might be a mistake to use this especially in cold climate area. The water might accumulate at that level and if it freezes it is going to create problems there
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:04 PM   #24
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Hi Joe
I thought of that too but I read somewhere (I believe it was on pavingexpert.com) that it might be a mistake to use this especially in cold climate area. The water might accumulate at that level and if it freezes it is going to create problems there
accumulate? how if you slope the earth grade? thats the whole point of sloping the earth grade to something more aggressive than finished patio. you could also apply a perforated material like the non-tyvek Lowes has. Lowes calls it their "tyvek" but its not Tyvek brand, etc. this stuff has perforations in it, would allow water to run and then drain out after watering entering has stopped, etc.

lets ask it another way, if you just use sand bed and earth grade is flat, where does that water go?

if you mean use of plastic then if the gravel isnt large enough to allow water to move then sure, you need to be careful on gravel size.

so then maybe use plastic just up near the house, maybe a 3-4ft rip and folded up against house 3-4".

if your earth allows water to soak in then using plastic on the whole thing perhaps not required, but if the earth is a sponge than water can wick right back to the house and hydraulics will push water.

do you have a soil report or know what type of soil you are dealing with?

Last edited by concrete_joe; 11-14-2014 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 11-14-2014, 06:59 PM   #25
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accumulate? how if you slope the earth grade? thats the whole point of sloping the earth grade to something more aggressive than finished patio. you could also apply a perforated material like the non-tyvek Lowes has. Lowes calls it their "tyvek" but its not Tyvek brand, etc. this stuff has perforations in it, would allow water to run and then drain out after watering entering has stopped, etc.

lets ask it another way, if you just use sand bed and earth grade is flat, where does that water go?

if you mean use of plastic then if the gravel isnt large enough to allow water to move then sure, you need to be careful on gravel size.

so then maybe use plastic just up near the house, maybe a 3-4ft rip and folded up against house 3-4".

if your earth allows water to soak in then using plastic on the whole thing perhaps not required, but if the earth is a sponge than water can wick right back to the house and hydraulics will push water.

do you have a soil report or know what type of soil you are dealing with?
This guy seems to be a civil engineer and he has an entire site about paving: http://www.pavingexpert.com/blocks2.htm
On this page you can see that he actually slopes the pavers from the base layer (gravel) !

The other point in discussion here is the polyethylene which is rejected as unacceptable without a real explaination http://www.pavingexpert.com/faqmembr.htm see the "Last word" paragraph
I am inclined to trust this guy, he is very well informed and everything is documented on his website. I would love to know that putting a plastic foil there would be OK ..I am tempted to do it but I can see his point, if the water stagnates there by accident it is going to harm more than it will do good if it doesn't
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Old 11-15-2014, 12:03 PM   #26
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post #25. that site has some good info. and suggests that a perforarted membrane go between sand bed and gravel bed. thats fine, but i would start earth slope at say 1/2" per ft.

yes, you still slope the pavers, but even at 1/4" per foot the water wont shed like it would on solid surface.

if you slope the earth say 1/2" per ft, then add 3" gravel then you have gravel bed that is 1/2" per ft. now add your sand bed but make that say 1/8" per ft, so now your pavers will finish at 1/8" per ft. you can go 1/4" per ft on sand bed but since water will soak through no matter what the 1/4" slope of pavers may be "excessive".

the soak through water should hit gravel and run away and soak into ground. if you use plastic sheathing its probably best to use perforated type over the earth and then your gravel. perforation allow the stay-behind water to soak away w/o over saturating the ground, etc.

sheathing depends on your soil type. but remember, water gets into hydraulics when that ground gets saturated and thus can push itself back up against and into your house materials, etc....

Last edited by concrete_joe; 11-15-2014 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 11-15-2014, 01:24 PM   #27
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To continue the subject and beat a dead horse, it is very simple and basic -

1). Slope the compacted base to the contour you want for drainage. The slope of the compacted base determines the drainage and the final surface will mirror that.

2). Put a uniform 1" screeded layer of coarse/concrete sand over the compacted base.

3). Set the pavers in the desired pattern with tight joints. Real pavers have small spacer ribs on the lower 2/3 of the sides. If you are using the less common clay brick pavers, you have to look to the manufacturer for instructions.

4.) Cast fine or masonry sand over the surface and then run a vibratory plate compactor over the surface. - This creates the interlock for strength and stability.

5.) Sweep the area to remove the excess sand.

For real good information on paver installation and use, look at the ICPI (Interlocking Concrete Paver Institute) site.

The installation is the same for a patio as it for a 40 acre industrial site except the compacted base is a different (the paver thicknesses nay be a little different - up to 100 mm instead of 80 mm).
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Old 11-15-2014, 03:47 PM   #28
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To continue the subject and beat a dead horse, it is very simple and basic -

1). Slope the compacted base to the contour you want for drainage. The slope of the compacted base determines the drainage and the final surface will mirror that.
so this is what i am saying,,,,, you can slope the base more to get better drainage underneath, then make the sand bed the "final" slope which can be much flatter than the compacted base, which ends up being the paver slope, etc.
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Old 11-15-2014, 05:34 PM   #29
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Just do not increase the sand setting bed thickness and keep it uniform. Variable sand thickness leads to the paver possibly "floating" and wallowing because of the excess water collected in the setting bed layer since a compacted base is much more impervious than the sand setting bed.

Dick
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Old 11-15-2014, 05:50 PM   #30
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Thanks guys
@concretemasonry I knew about that site but I could not isolate the pertinent info for my case. I already saved a couple of good PDFs from that site, very instructive indeed

My soil is clay.
A week ago I looked at the sub-base and I had the impression that there was gravel, bigger that 3/4"... I will check and I will get back to you ..today I had to fight a furnace issue ... wasted a day on a loose contact . Damn it !
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