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Old 10-02-2019, 01:22 AM   #31
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gslenk View Post
Right now, I am thinking of a slightly smaller L-shape. . . .
Ok, was just going off the long counter in post #1. Just food for thought, "usually"

Sinks are at windows:
- the view
- most used area, so no cabinet at your forehead
- empty counter at window may be covered with small appliances/decor

Ranges are not good at skinny seating islands:
- splatter/steam/mess
- hood
- prep may overtake seating counter
- main circulation running by the island

If you have a large kitchen or multiple islands, anything's game. In a small kitchen, efficiency of layout is key and what people expect. Deviating from that, even if "custom," starts to become "odd." It'd be a shame to spend tens of thousands on cabinets, counters, flooring, lighting, appliances for an "odd" layout rather than spending $50 on PVC to redo the plumbing.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:19 AM   #32
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


You still need the built in oven and microwave.
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:48 PM   #33
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


Well, to sister the floor joists, (either for an abundance of strength, or as a necessity if I want to tile) it looks like the basement ceiling drywall is likely coming down anyway, so moving the sink to the window might be possible. I am also going to overhaul the drain plumbing anyway to finish removing all the cast iron from the house. That and the adjacent bathroom has S-traps and other sketchy crap.

The issues I see about a sink under the window:
1) Horizontal in-wall drain routing. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I cannot bore 2+ inch holes (2.5" in the case of 2" pvc) in exterior load bearing studs in the wall for the horizontal portions of the drain line.

2) If I can get past #1 somehow, the center of the window is 83" from an interior wall, and a few more feet on top of that to the original vent location. I would feel OK running a relief vent in the interior wall of 1.5" pvc.

3) If somehow I do manage a legit solution for #1 and #2, then there will be the relatively minor issue of running another chase on the basement ceiling, right above an exterior door. I could probably make that part work if boring through joists (not to mention actually getting pipe in there...) is not an option.

What info am I missing for ya'll to give me some tips on making a sink under the window actually work (or are the issue I presented actually easy to overcome)?

If it helps, the island is not intended to be a seating area in the most recent plan.

I am cooking up some more models to reflect your suggestions (also to address the oven and microwave)...

Last edited by gslenk; 10-05-2019 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:59 PM   #34
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


So here is where everything would go, assuming the sink under a window is not an option.

Blue: Sink (20 inch wide in model, likely will actually be 30" wide)
Yellow: Built in Microwave
Green: Dishwasher
Purple: Fridge
Red: Stove, built in oven underneath.

Bonus points: That orange wall on the left, should it be removed to expose the edge of the counter? I am leaning towards yes. But what if I end up putting a fridge there (if I can get the sink under the window...)? Seems like it should stay for a cleaner fridge install. Or does it not matter what happens, tear that little wall down?
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:16 PM   #35
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


And this is a quick and dirty of how I would lay out the sink under the window. Maybe omit the island, in favor of a real dining area, don't know. I'm having a hard time talking myself out of the previous plan... mainly due to lack of a better option. Maybe y'all could mark up rough locations of where you would put stuff in (or describe it) and I'll try to make up a real model. I'm out of time for fussing with it today.

Here is the layout. The 114" dimension is actually 9ft. Or 9' 4.5" if that little section of wall is chopped down as previously mentioned.
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Old 10-07-2019, 01:35 PM   #36
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gslenk View Post
And this is a quick and dirty of how I would lay out the sink under the window.
I would do this layout. A drawing can mask the size of a room. In reality, you have a very small area to work with. This layout makes it more open and the whole area of 3 rooms will feel larger by getting the fridge and hood to the back wall.

On this layout I would remove the fridge wall and just have a cabinet end panel. A full-height decorative hood. A 3" or 6" filler next to the stove in the corner. Dead-end wall cabinet from corner to window, maybe a glass door wall cabinet between the windows, all 42" high. Big seating islands are probably the most popular amenity asked for since the 80s, you have the size so utilize it for that.

I have a house with the exact same layout (except dimensions are a little bigger and the floor overhangs the lower level). I assume the waste/vent stack is along that kitchen wall. The sink lines do not have to be in the exterior wall, they can come up into the cabinet from below.
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:29 PM   #37
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


or .............
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:27 PM   #38
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


Thanks for the ideas!

So to recap... priorities seem to be:
1) Get the sink under the window.
2) Get some kind of island (not sure if I'll go standard counter height, or taller "bar" type height)
3) Get the fridge and stove/oven/microwave on a wall
4) Tear down that last sliver of wall, finish cabinets (or wherever ends up there) accordingly.

Any other general tips, while I try to find time to work up some models?

About my initial sink issues/panic... I have given it some thought, does this plan sound "right"? Hopefully I can get it across in words (red line in attachment):

Run the sink drain (to the left side of the sink) between the back of the cabinets, and in front of the wall (26" counter top, 24" cabinets) Cut out a line of drywall, possibly notch studs a little (up to 1/2") if necessary to accommodate drain pipe. Vent will angle up into the exterior wall stud cavity (angle >45 degrees) and go up into the attic to either go out the roof, or tie in with existing venting. Drain will continue over and either drop through the floor, or run over to the bathroom and tie in with drains there. Does that sound like a legit solution? I'd rather not bump/fur the walls out. Can I notch exterior load bearing studs, and window cripple/king studs? Should I try to get a 2" drain, or just go with 1.5"?

PS, I really hate corner cabinets, but at least one seems necessary. I do appreciate Neal's layout (a new, fresh idea) but I'll have to play with it, since it seems to isolate the kitchen area a bit, and add an extra corner cabinet.
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:49 PM   #39
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


The corner cupboard could be accessible from the dining room side.
A 2" pipe give you more distance to the stack and vent.

I would move the vent to the right of the window and just run it thru the back of the cupboard, with the vent there you can go down with the drain below the floor.
Or the vent on the left and move the DW to the right. then the drain could go in the toe kick over to the bathroom. Or right thru the back of the cupboard.

Don't notch the studs
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:30 AM   #40
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gslenk View Post
2) Get some kind of island (not sure if I'll go standard counter height, or taller "bar" type height)
3) Get the microwave on a wall

PS, I really hate corner cabinets, but at least one seems necessary.
The island is your prep, display, and eating area. Keeping it all one height makes it multi-functional. You can still sit at a 36" high counter but a sliver of 12" bar height length dedicates that part for only seating.

Your budget and look may determine the microwave. Cheapest is sit it on the counter. Next is an exhaust combo over the stove. Then in-cabinet, maybe in the island.

The sink window layout you show has no corner cabinet. It has a blind cabinet in the corner. You would put a minimum 3" filler next to the stove to allow it to open without interfering with adjacent door pulls. You could also do a 6" spice pull-out cabinet. Or wider drawer base if you reduce the cabinet next to the fridge.

Plumbing, you have a beam underneath parallel with the hall/fridge wall. You "may" have the option of running between joists back to the center beam, where dropping down there and over to the stack just means a little bit wider soffit.
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:02 PM   #41
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


I would do whatever it took to put the sink by the window and run the drain line to connect to the main drainage line for the drain. Even removing as section of the subfloor, preferably in the area where the new cabinets will sit, would be worthwhile.



The drain for a kitchen sink can be anywhere under the cabinet and it is commonly done into the wall for convenience with new construction. I would never run it horizontally across the walls as this is inviting trouble.



It is OK to make a hole in a joist if it is not in the middle third section of the board.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:00 PM   #42
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Calson View Post
I would do whatever it took to put the sink by the window and run the drain line to connect to the main drainage line for the drain. Even removing as section of the subfloor, preferably in the area where the new cabinets will sit, would be worthwhile.



The drain for a kitchen sink can be anywhere under the cabinet and it is commonly done into the wall for convenience with new construction. I would never run it horizontally across the walls as this is inviting trouble.



It is OK to make a hole in a joist if it is not in the middle third section of the board.
Just to clarify, not in the middle third of the length of the joist. Closer to the walls the middle third of the height is the best place.
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:49 PM   #43
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


Well, the simple/stove wall lines up nicely. But the sink wall is gonna need some creativity. Am I right to force the sink to be centered on the window at all costs? As I fight the temptation to slide the sink over to align near the left side of the window, which would solve the ~3" gaps problem, and give me my 21" wide trash pullout between the fridge and sink. I could always align the fixtures to center on the window... (devil's advocate speaking)

30" (or 36", leaning towards 30) on the sink cab width.
38"x 38" corner cab width on each back edge.
36" cab for stove top
24" hole for DW
Still need 21" cab for pull out trash, would be nice to have this between fridge and sink.
Planning on a 36" wide fridge.

Oven looks like it will need to be in the island.

Haven't started playing with alternate fridge locations (like left wall), but that doesn't look promising, since I have 36" to play with and don't want it that close to the stove. I could go with a smaller fridge in the same spot (30"-33") and put a beverage fridge in the island... or is that teetering on "unconventional"?
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Last edited by gslenk; 10-09-2019 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:58 PM   #44
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


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Old 10-09-2019, 07:57 PM   #45
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Re: Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?


...............
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