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Old 04-17-2019, 11:39 AM   #1
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Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Working on plans for outdoor kitchen with counter/bar top. If u look at the pic, you can see the counter height lower than the actual bar top (with appliance/cabinets tucked under counter). I will be using 14X16X8 cinder blocks (full and half) to construct the walls here. The outer wall will be half blocks (8" wide) up the height of about 35", and then I want to use 1 row of full row of full block (16" wide) to get me to the correct bar height. For the last row (full block), half the block will be supported under the other rows, but other half of block would be hanging over. The granite top would have about 8" overhang on left side and go right to edge of block on right side (see below) for sample. Will there b any issues with the last row supporting the granite top?

|....granite top|
......| full block|
......| half |
......| half |
......| half |
......| half |
......ground
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Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite-premium-outdoor-refrigerators-kalamazoo.jpg  
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:15 PM   #2
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Alright, you have a sorta drawing now. First, will there be an applied finish like stone or tile to the CMU blocks? Second, is the only purpose of the offset block to support more width of the bar top?

I kinda got lost with your description of the CMUs. The standard (nominal) size is 8"Wide X 16"Long X 8"High. But you plan on using a different size of 14"Wx16"Lx8"H. You say to use a "half block" (which would be 14"Wx8"Lx8"H) of that for the first 4 courses but you arrive at 8"wide? I know 14"CMUs usually don't offer many other special shapes, so am I confused? Then you are turning the blocks on the 5th course perpendicular to overhang 8" on the cooks side?

So:
- why isn't the main wall of (4) courses 8x16 in running bond, 32" high?
- the cooks counter would be 36" high. If you offset the 5th course, the counter interferes with that course.
- typical bar height would be 42", usually you want min. 12" overhang to tuck bar stools under it
- any overhanging block will have open cells underneath, may be a problem depending on what you are doing with the cooks counter.
- if you are not applying a finish, you will have to get special shapes like closed ends. You may not have these available in 14" CMU.
- if you overhang a perpendicular block 8" with no courses above it, you will need to have vertical rebar embedded in the foundation and cells filled all the way, for each perpendicular block (compare that to setting a 12" wide block on top of 8", all parallel in running bond, you would only fill cells with rebar say every 3rd block).

Have you not considered just one 8" wide wall 40" high, with embedded "L" bracket to support the bar counter?
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:42 PM   #3
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


I would put some rebar in it and fill it with concrete.
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:48 AM   #4
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Look at the pic of the pavilion design I am trying to go with. What I am modifying here is adding the counter/bar top to the sides walls. I want the profile of that to be the same width as the 4 support columns. So if I need 30"depth to fit my cabinets and additional width to support granite bar top (I used 8"), I come up with the columns width needing to be about 38"-40" wide. That would be 2 16" long cinder blocks + 1 8" long half cinder block.

I would then run half blocks (8") along the side wall (you can see from the pic how the side walls connect to the column/back and its even with the outside of the column.

My concern is if I am standing on the inside of the counter, 30-32" is a long reach to get to the bar top counter. That is why I wanted to look at overhanging the cinder block on last row of the wall to lessen the reach. I was think the last course of the wall (starting at 36" high) would be a full 16" column, which would have half of it sitting on the 8" wide wall and the other 8 inches would overhang. Hope it makes sense,



Quote:
Originally Posted by 3onthetree View Post
Alright, you have a sorta drawing now. First, will there be an applied finish like stone or tile to the CMU blocks? Second, is the only purpose of the offset block to support more width of the bar top?

I kinda got lost with your description of the CMUs. The standard (nominal) size is 8"Wide X 16"Long X 8"High. But you plan on using a different size of 14"Wx16"Lx8"H. You say to use a "half block" (which would be 14"Wx8"Lx8"H) of that for the first 4 courses but you arrive at 8"wide? I know 14"CMUs usually don't offer many other special shapes, so am I confused? Then you are turning the blocks on the 5th course perpendicular to overhang 8" on the cooks side?

So:
- why isn't the main wall of (4) courses 8x16 in running bond, 32" high?
- the cooks counter would be 36" high. If you offset the 5th course, the counter interferes with that course.
- typical bar height would be 42", usually you want min. 12" overhang to tuck bar stools under it
- any overhanging block will have open cells underneath, may be a problem depending on what you are doing with the cooks counter.
- if you are not applying a finish, you will have to get special shapes like closed ends. You may not have these available in 14" CMU.
- if you overhang a perpendicular block 8" with no courses above it, you will need to have vertical rebar embedded in the foundation and cells filled all the way, for each perpendicular block (compare that to setting a 12" wide block on top of 8", all parallel in running bond, you would only fill cells with rebar say every 3rd block).

Have you not considered just one 8" wide wall 40" high, with embedded "L" bracket to support the bar counter?
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:49 AM   #5
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Sorry, forgot to answer your first question. The CMU will be finished with a white cement layer (waterproof).
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:56 AM   #6
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealtw View Post
I would put some rebar in it and fill it with concrete.
Cool. You pic looks exactly what I am I trying to do. You see any issue with the overhang portion of the CMU supporting the granite top?

There will be 8" of the block supported with CMU's underneath, 8" not supported. Granite top will be about 24" wide. 8" overhang on outside sitting area, 8" directly under supported CMU, and 8" overhang (not supported) inside counter area.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:04 AM   #7
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1224 View Post
Cool. You pic looks exactly what I am I trying to do. You see any issue with the overhang portion of the CMU supporting the granite top?

There will be 8" of the block supported with CMU's underneath, 8" not supported. Granite top will be about 24" wide. 8" overhang on outside sitting area, 8" directly under supported CMU, and 8" overhang (not supported) inside counter area.
I would think you could work the rebar in it and fill with concrete it should be fine.
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:24 AM   #8
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Sorry, I'm more of a visual guy, a sketch would help.

Cabinets = 24" deep? Can't reach across to touch the top of backsplash in your kitchen? Covering up 8" of expensive granite?

8" bar top overhang for guests will extend past the roof columns then?

CMU courses = 8" high equals 32", 40" unless you do something with the foundation as Neal's drawing shows or use a 4" high filler

Just a scratch and finish coat on the CMU will require closed ends

Again, turning the top course perpendicular to the wall will require a rebar in each block. Still not following use of 14" wide CMUs though.
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:00 PM   #9
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


The cabinets I am purchasing are 30" deep (kalamazoo outdoor) which is part of my problem.

Yes, on the outside of the pavilion it would go past roof columns

I'm assuming the mason can get me to the proper height (either with filler or shaving block)

Agree, that shouldn't be an issue

I was using 14" vs 12" to make the column proportion nicer and support the roof beam
40X14 vs 40 X 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3onthetree View Post
Sorry, I'm more of a visual guy, a sketch would help.

Cabinets = 24" deep? Can't reach across to touch the top of backsplash in your kitchen? Covering up 8" of expensive granite?

8" bar top overhang for guests will extend past the roof columns then?

CMU courses = 8" high equals 32", 40" unless you do something with the foundation as Neal's drawing shows or use a 4" high filler

Just a scratch and finish coat on the CMU will require closed ends

Again, turning the top course perpendicular to the wall will require a rebar in each block. Still not following use of 14" wide CMUs though.
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Old 04-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #10
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Re: Offset concrete blocks - worried about support for granite


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3onthetree View Post
Sorry, I'm more of a visual guy, a sketch would help.

Cabinets = 24" deep? Can't reach across to touch the top of backsplash in your kitchen? Covering up 8" of expensive granite?

8" bar top overhang for guests will extend past the roof columns then?

CMU courses = 8" high equals 32", 40" unless you do something with the foundation as Neal's drawing shows or use a 4" high filler

Just a scratch and finish coat on the CMU will require closed ends

Again, turning the top course perpendicular to the wall will require a rebar in each block. Still not following use of 14" wide CMUs though.
The floor slab over the footing would take up 3-4-5 inches of extra height with 5 block high.
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