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Old 10-12-2014, 07:02 PM   #16
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Thank you. Regarding the conditioned /unconditioned. I guess it would be considered conditioned as per above, the temp is closer to the living space. It could be 10 degrees outside vs. 50 in the basement. Does this adjust what needs to be done regarding insulating the rim joists?
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Old 10-12-2014, 07:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davemax View Post
Thank you. Regarding the conditioned /unconditioned. I guess it would be considered conditioned as per above, the temp is closer to the living space. It could be 10 degrees outside vs. 50 in the basement. Does this adjust what needs to be done regarding insulating the rim joists?
I recommend a dehumidifier to keep the humidity somewhere in the 30 percent range with the temperatures of 10 outdoor and 50 in the basement.

Use the link and click the dot that solves for dew point. Set the temp. scale at 50 and run the humidity up and down its scale to see what happens to the dew point temperature.

If the humidity is adjusted into the 50 percent range at those temperatures given there is likely to be moisture condense on the interior surface if the rim reaches temperatures in the 30'ish range. As the outdoor temperatures increase for the better it may be possible to shut down the dehumidifier some days.
If the insulation is still on go I would devise a method to monitor rim temperature during cold spells and use the link to advantage.

http://dpcalc.org/
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:28 AM   #18
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Thanks
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Old 10-13-2014, 09:25 AM   #19
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crawl space?


Along with the rim joist insulation, I have one more item if anyone can assist?

Had an old porch, unheated, over a dirt floor, but the siding went all the way to the ground, not a lattice or open sides.
They gutted the porch, insulated it top to floor, fiberglass in ceiling, walls (new studs), in the floor joists, put subfloor, linoleum.
Have a small 1/2 bath in the porch now, and another area for a freezer, shelving. So there is plumbing that put in for the sink and toilet through one of the joists in basement, and waste pipe comes back through joist to sewer line. Also, there was old basement window apparently under the porch that was boarded up when porch was added to home in the 1940's. They used this window to run 2 flex ducts through there, and sealed up best they could. So there are 2 ducts that are under the porch as well that go to floor vents in new insulated porch.

Problem: contractor did not use actual boots at floor above, lots of gaps and spray foamed. We always smelled the dirt floor below. He did not use any vapor barrier in subfloor, or at ducts either.
He came back and put some plastic on the dirt floor underneath, put some batt in the joists above , and put some rigid board on walls underneath. Not the best/sealed job, but said due to some plumbing under there, needed to keep it warmer. There no vents in this porch underneath, never were.

I have an actual HVAC company coming out to put new boots on the ducts, and said they could use a vapor barrier at that point and up to the floor and that should seal off any drafts we felt and smelled. I looked into having all the ducts ripped out and just putting in electric baseboard heat ( cheap electric rates where the house is).

So, is this considered a crawl space underneath? Should i pull out his cheap thin uneven covered plastic and put some stronger 6mil or higher vapor barrier on floor? any insulation issues here? was it a waste to even put insulation under there? Do I need to not have plastic on floor to let floor "air Out" constantly? am i just trapping odor under there? You guys get the picture. Again, where the siding meets the ground, there is a about an inch or so open at bottom. Thinking if it was a room with no plumbing/pipes, no insulation would be need under there, again, not sure if this is actually a crawl space, just an exposed porch so to speak.

Any thoughts? Seen lots of sites about crawl space encapsulation, really getting it air tight?

Last edited by davemax; 10-13-2014 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 10-13-2014, 09:53 AM   #20
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And by the way, your help is invaluable to people like me, and I do realize i am getting professional advice. Did not mean to come off like i knew more than anyone. Trying to block out all the nonsense that's out there and just rely on you guys.

I think my dilema with the rim joist insulation thing was, frustration knowing i had to cut board and spray foam all of them.. i know the fiberglass is so much easier, but now afraid of the moisture issue. The basement will and does have a de-humdifier running at all times.

And another frustration was with the spray foam. everytime i used spray foam, it's such a large expansion? didn't then want to have to go around and trim the mess after it dries!
Should i use the one that doesn't expand the that much? they have some for windows and doors? the only other one i see is for gaps less than 1 inch. What's the trick, just keep the can moving and spray lightly?

Thanks again.
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Old 10-13-2014, 05:46 PM   #21
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No worries Dave

Why the concern about over expansion in the rim joists? Doesn't need to be pretty. I would not use the low expansion stuff there.

Fairview's advice about running a dehumidifier is solid, regardless of what you put in the rim joists. Two things to add: 1) It probably won't run much in the winter if you live in a cold climate as it gets pretty dry (around here people run HUMIDIFIERS in the winter to keep the moisture level comfortable). Really depends on your specific home though. 2) If you have windows in your basement, simply monitoring those will let you know if condensation will be an issue. They will condense first before any other area.

On the "crawlspace" it should really be treated as exactly that. It sounds like the guys that did it the first time had the right concept, possibly just shoddy workmanship/materials? What is the height from your homes finished floor to the ground in this area?
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:18 PM   #22
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"What is the height from your homes finished floor to the ground in this area? "
no more than 4 feet from the dirt floor to the joist in the "crawl space", more like 3 1/2 feet.
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:27 PM   #23
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definitely would be classified as a crawlspace in that case. As I mentioned earlier, the concept as done currently is correct for a sealed crawlspace, just may need to be done better per your description. Are there vents into the space? If so, seal them up.
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:54 PM   #24
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No vents, however, I questioned whether or crawl space because it is nothing more than the space under a once open porch, it has a "hatch door" about 2 feet high where you could access underneath the porch. My father used to open the hatches in the summer to "air out" underneath.

and again, the siding goes down 3 sides about 2 inches from the ground, so in essence it is relatively open at the bottom. Wondering if I should get the vapor barrier and pull up the sides to block out everything.

PS. just got a second set of short term radon test results, 6.5 in basement, 2.7 in living room. Basement as I stated before has issues.. open sump, some cracks in walls, floor does leak water at center due to hydrostatic pressure mostly in winter/spring.

seriously considering the French drain to be put in (sides /wall sealed at floor), enclosed sump, and cement the holes, and the deal with the floor. Flat level floor in center, then slopes on 4 sides to walls. The seam where it slopes is where the water comes in. Going to use grinder at those points, caulk, etc..
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Old 10-13-2014, 10:16 PM   #25
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In regards to the OP question ...You can get wireless temp monitors that have wires with probes for not a lot of $$.
You could put the probe right against the rim and then foam over it.
I have 4" of foam on the rim and 1" of foam board on the walls with r13 glass in studs past that.
Now that the basement is finished temps average 66f with a high of 68F in summer and 63f in the dead of winter.( uninsulated ceramic tile floor even).
That's with no heat ducts on and I have plenty.
Air sealing and insulating made a big difference from what it used to be.
Main level floor is warmer now ..no cold stocking feet.
I do run a dehumidifier in the basement except in the winter.
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Old 10-14-2014, 07:19 AM   #26
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Post up some pics Dave.

No worries about the back and forth. I appreciate a lively debate as does HomeSealed.

You should have seen some of ours back in the day....epic battles.
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Old 10-14-2014, 08:05 AM   #27
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Thanks
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:34 AM   #28
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To clarify, it is now conditioned living space above this "crawlspace" in question, correct? How much above grade vs below grade?
Pics would be helpful.

@Wow, epic to be sure. Something like this:
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:43 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeSealed
To clarify, it is now conditioned living space above this "crawlspace" in question, correct? How much above grade vs below grade? Pics would be helpful. @Wow, epic to be sure. Something like this:
Too funny!!
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:47 AM   #30
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Yes, it is conditioned above the crawl space, it was an uninsulated porch /enclosed; had a door off the kitchen that went into this room. Now the room is completely insulated, has a half bath, door to kitchen removed, and it has 2 ducts running to it from under the crawl space. all above grade, even the crawl space is above grade.. as the "crawl space" was merely the area under the porch.


Okay, the pics are of the other side of the house.. same set up.. this is the "front porch" not insulated, but you can see where the block foundation ends, and the siding of the porch begins and goes to ground (dirt floor under there). ON the other side of house, no pic available now, is same set up.. only no windows.
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