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Old 01-26-2014, 12:13 PM   #16
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I'm near Des Moines, Ia.

Like I've mentioned earlier my home is over 100 yrs old. We know we'll never seal it up perfectly, but with blow in and riding board we're hoping to make it a bit more bearable and more energy efficient.
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Old 01-26-2014, 02:21 PM   #17
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you'll see a huge improvement, no doubt about it. just attack every crack you can. good luck.
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:07 PM   #18
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I’m glad that it worked out for you! A person needs to check locally on the blower…. I believe a wall requires more than 3# density to dense-pack; for the benefits, if you research it a bit. This from DOE training; “Density display: Take two small, thin cardboard boxes of the same size. Fill one with cellulose to the proper density (around 3.5 lbs/ft3); fill the other to a density that is less than recommended. Place the boxes side by side in front of a halogen lamp or other heat source. Let students view the boxes through an infrared camera to see the importance of proper installation density. Pass the boxes around the class to let students feel the difference in weight.” From; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.cGU&cad=rja

Another one (DOE) from last May; “Cellulose insulation is used in both new and existing homes, as loose-fill in open attic installations and dense packed in building cavities such as walls and cathedral ceilings. In existing structures, installers remove a strip of exterior siding, usually about waist high; drill a row of three inch holes, one into each stud bay, through the wall sheathing; insert a special filler tube to the top of the wall cavity; and blow the insulation into the building cavity, typically to a density of 3.5 lb per cubic foot. When installation is complete, the holes are sealed with a plug and the siding is replaced and touched up if necessary to match the wall.” From; http://energy.gov/energysaver/articl...tion-materials
If one is to dense pack, be sure to use a 1-1/8---1/4” filler tube, otherwise; the cavity is not dense-packed. http://www.insulationmachines.net/de...e-correct-way/ Problem with the box store blowers (my local HD only has a 2.3 psi blower- unsuitable to dense-pack) is the extensive use they get; the seals may be worn to give lower pressures unless you pressure gauge test check before use- so much so, they fall below the minimum psi to dense pack to 3.5#; pp. 23-“Construction example: 2 inches x 4 inches x 8 feet on 16 inch centers, 2.8 cubic foot cavity
CELLULOSE COVERAGE
1.6 pound material density, 18.7 pound bag
Wall Pack Density Pounds Per Cavity
4.0 pounds 11.2 pounds
3.5 pounds 9.8 pounds
3.0 pounds 8.4 pounds
Average yield with Cellulose: 1.9 cavities per 18.7 pound bag
From: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...59930103,d.cGU
So, be certain to get the correct product weight per number/size of cavities (or fill a test panel); if one has less than average stated (3.5#), it wouldn’t get the optimum water-wicking capabilities by being less dense- notice the install difference for the 12-18” deep ceilings; http://www.nationalfiber.com/docs/Hy...ldings0913.pdf
Air travel through dense pack (it is an air permeable insulation) is another concern. At 3.5# it is minimal, at 3# it is compromised, in fact not even considered in a “standards test” for the industry. Figs. 69, 70 show the drop from 3.5 to 4# density, just add that difference (.28 in the short, .09 in the long) to figure 3# density is a poor air barrier in a wall application. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...59930103,d.cGU
If one is going to dense-pack, IMO, get no less than 3.5#pcf to be effective as an air barrier and most effectively wick any water leaks away from the wood framing. Rent a stronger machine (with a plastic 1-1/4” x 10-12’ tube) and pressure test it with gauge/cavity math to be sure of “dense-packing”, otherwise it is a wasted effort.



Gary
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17,000 dryer fires a year, when did you last clean the inside of the dryer near motor or the exhaust ducting?
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:50 PM   #19
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Yes, and then then you read this in places, like CIMA, The Cellulose Insulation Manufacturers Association: See article at http://www.cellulose.org/userdocs/Te...ectiveness.pdf) "The R factor of cellulose is approx 3.8/inch, and does not vary over a wide range of densities" (this is from memory, and may not be the exact wording. See the article.) In the previous link I posted, above, the Insul Contractors Assoc of Amer says 1.5 times the nominal settled density, which is 1.5 pcf. That did not come from my head. So, do we believe the government, or the folks who make and install the stuff? OK, so that one is a no-brainer; sorry about that! My money is generally with the guys who make the stuff. From what I've been able to glean from all the places I've read and people I've talked to, the Goal, if you will, is to get it to not settle and the rest takes care of itself. High density is, apparently, better for acoustics, and that makes sense; mass is one of the big variables there. Robert Riversong has been using the Force 2 machines to dense pack (very thick) walls for many years, if not decades. I will banter no more on the subject, as it seems this is another bit of building science that has a tad of opinion associated w/ it. Either way, study and make your own call. Cheers.
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Old 01-27-2014, 08:11 PM   #20
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The Force 2 machine and others (similar) are perfect for dense-packing. My concern was; my local Home Depot only carries a 2.3#psi machine, below the DOE requirements. Just ask the attendant before renting a machine if capable of 3.5#pcf, to Do It Yourself.

I never mentioned the R-value, other than a slight hit it takes when dense-packing. It does loose some R-value and at 3.5# it is self-supporting; no settling over time compared to lesser densities, from some "who make the stuff"; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...ed-cellulose-1

From a worker "in the field"; "Dense-packed cellulose is cellulose blown into a wall cavity until it reaches 3.5 lbs. per cubic foot — a.k.a. “dense.” From; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...existing-homes

The 1.5X you quoted was incomplete, read the rest from that 1998 paper;
"The Insulation Contractors Association of America recommends a density of 1.5 times nominal settled density for side wall installations. Some manufacturers recommend an installed density of at least
3.5 p.c.f. in side walls.

8.3.3 Dry cellulose insulation can be installed in new
walls using temporary retainers that are clamped in place
to create a closed cavity. Insulation is blown into the
temporary cavity at sufficient density to keep it in place
when the retainer is removed. An installed density of 3.5
to 4.0 p.c.f. may be necessary."
--------------------------------------------
Or at lesser densities it may settle/fall out. My whole point is when you have the machine at install, go for it! = 3.5# minimum to get better air stoppage, better wicking of incidental water/moisture, and no settling (only with a tubing feeder). I don't see where/how this blew up and upset you, if so; sorry.

Gary
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Old 01-27-2014, 09:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary in WA View Post
I don't see where/how this blew up and upset you, if so; sorry.

Gary
WTH? Never ruffed my feathers in the slightest. We were just throwing out what we'd researched. All's cool here. Now, if you start on how crappy the Cleveland Browns are, then we're gonna have to have some talkin'!
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