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Old 05-26-2020, 08:58 PM   #31
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


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Originally Posted by ClarenceBauer View Post
you just have to follow the rules & guidelines.
Well, yeah that applies to everything.

The general consensus here between Olympia, WA and Vancouver BC is the rules and guidelines are too numerous to follow for EFIS to work.

So either the system is flawed, it's not suited for this climate, or?
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:08 PM   #32
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


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Originally Posted by Biscuits View Post
Well, yeah that applies to everything.

The general consensus here between Olympia, WA and Vancouver BC is the rules and guidelines are too numerous to follow for EFIS to work.

So either the system is flawed, it's not suited for this climate, or?
I have to agree with @ ClarenceBauer if rainscreening is followed any siding will work
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:15 PM   #33
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


I went back & dug up some paper work related to the EIFS.
I worked with the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in January 1, 2005 thru March 30, 2006.
This was for research on the EIFS, The Hygrothermal Performance of Exterior Wall Systems:
A building was constructed which consisted of test panels being installed on the North & South Elevations on the East & West ends we kind of had the freedom to use the Synthetic Stucco system as we selected.
The test panels consisted of various configurations of exterior cladding systems ( EISF , Brick , Stucco Concrete block & cementitious fiber board siding. All of the claddings had finishes applied as per manufacture spec.
Each of the wall panels contained a variety of sensors that recored a full profile of temperature, heat flux, relative humidity, & moisture content. These sensors collected data 24 hours a day 7 days a week & transmitted the data to the O.R.N.L.
Study approach: in keeping with the DOE's strategy of promoting a whole building approach to building design, operation and maintenance, the research project considered the building envelope in its entirety, rather than studying isolated materials or component systems. This building was fully insulated with drywall finished & painted. was fully conditioned with its own weather station contained on the interior.
Quote from the report: The best performing wall system was the EIFS consisting of four inches of expanded polystyrene insulation board. This wall out preformed all other walls in terms of moisture while maintaining superior thermal performance.
We did do a test panel of Vinyl siding it did not make it past the 3 MO. period.
We even directed some rain water behind one of the rain screen test panels that had a liquid waterproofing applied no water got past the water proofing the rain screen worked as design.
There was also a test building like this one in the state of Washington along the coast.
If EIFS & Stucco are done as per spec. you won't have a water or moisture.
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:51 PM   #34
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


That's probably correct. And why the big contractors here can't do it right I don't know.
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Old 05-27-2020, 05:35 AM   #35
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


@ClarenceBauer a tip of the hat to O.R.N.L.
One of the problems from where I sit is introducing any new product to an old established workforce. Once the building industry gets comfortable with their old school methods it takes an act of God and decades to retrain them and all of the inspectors watching the process. Heck how many posters here totally ignore our simple building codes. And building codes are often at the discretion of each building department.

Commercial, maybe, but for residential KISS is a necessary part of building practices.

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Old 05-27-2020, 07:57 AM   #36
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuits View Post
Well, yeah that applies to everything.

The general consensus here between Olympia, WA and Vancouver BC is the rules and guidelines are too numerous to follow for EFIS to work.

So either the system is flawed, it's not suited for this climate, or?
If the guidelines for EIFS are too numerous lets compare them to the guidelines for an electrician.
Look @ how many different layouts you can have with the electric system & it seams to work very well until a person NOT trained in it, tries to install it.
Would this make the electrical system flawed? It all has to do with training.
Take the Plaster trade A helper / apprentice before he can become an Journeyman must undergo on the job training for NO less than 5 years at the craft plus supplement his experience with 144 hours of classroom instruction.
Now how many workers doing Plaster / Stucco had anywhere near this amount of training after the year 1975.
If a person has to be certified to do electrical work WHY not require a person be certified to follow those EIFS guidelines.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:27 AM   #37
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


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Originally Posted by ClarenceBauer View Post
If a person has to be certified to do electrical work WHY not require a person be certified to follow those EIFS guidelines.

Is this about EFIS or the building industry as a whole?

IMO, there is a cultural shift that is required. There are few entities who (can afford to) construct buildings to last. A lot of the industry is built on the theme of get in, get it done, get out, move on to the next job. Time is money.

By the time the walls are filled with water and anyone notices, the LLC that slapped the condo together has been dissolved.

And this hardly entirely the builders fault. The lenders want their money back. So the builder is under the gun to produce.

And the municipalities want their cut. There are some jurisdictions where I live who are adding north of $30K onto the price a new SFH. You gotta have this permit, you need that permit, plus those permits, and let's not forget the regular permits...

The purchaser can only cover so much of that, so some of that cost is recuperated by quick and dirty construction.

Plus of course a lot of hands on work has been demonized by the public school system in this country. So some of those, who would be ideally suited for the trades are funneled off into accounting business, for example.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:55 AM   #38
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


Another issue with required certification is it often only involves one member of the crew and the rest are supposed to follow his/her direction regardless of their training. I had some electrical work in progress and spotted the helper not doing something correctly. Talked to the one holding the license and that work had to be removed and done over. Only happened because I was there. PS, never saw the electrical inspector on the job site.

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Old 05-27-2020, 10:26 AM   #39
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


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Originally Posted by Biscuits View Post
Is this about EFIS or the building industry as a whole?

IMO, there is a cultural shift that is required. There are few entities who (can afford to) construct buildings to last. A lot of the industry is built on the theme of get in, get it done, get out, move on to the next job. Time is money.

By the time the walls are filled with water and anyone notices, the LLC that slapped the condo together has been dissolved.

And this hardly entirely the builders fault. The lenders want their money back. So the builder is under the gun to produce.

And the municipalities want their cut. There are some jurisdictions where I live who are adding north of $30K onto the price a new SFH. You gotta have this permit, you need that permit, plus those permits, and let's not forget the regular permits...

The purchaser can only cover so much of that, so some of that cost is recuperated by quick and dirty construction.

Plus of course a lot of hands on work has been demonized by the public school system in this country. So some of those, who would be ideally suited for the trades are funneled off into accounting business, for example.
So based on all the above.
Does that make the EIFS a bad product as you stated.
Or does it relate to the builder / home owner hiring unqualified contractors?
It cost more to have the properly qualified workers install all building materials.
The purchaser can only cover so much , but i can get paid twice as much to correct the bad installation?
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:40 AM   #40
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


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We did do a test panel of Vinyl siding it did not make it past the 3 MO. period.
I don't get it. What exactly failed/how? The vinyl failed ???
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:49 AM   #41
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


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I don't get it. What exactly failed/how? The vinyl failed ???
Water leaking behind the Vinyl siding, wind blown rain.
Installed as per written instructions furnished with the siding.
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Old 05-27-2020, 04:01 PM   #42
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Re: Rigid Foam Insulation on Home Exterior


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So based on all the above.
Does that make the EIFS a bad product as you stated.
EFIS could be the next best thing next to sliced bread.

But given the choice, I would never choose it.

What works perfect under laboratory conditions is not real life.
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