Frozen Water Pipe - Insulation Question - Insulation - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum
Advertisement


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Insulation

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Display Modes
Old 01-07-2014, 06:06 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 97
Rewards Points: 129
Default

Frozen water pipe - insulation question


I hope everyone is managing with all this artic cold weather. Here in VA, last night was -20 wind chills with 2 degree temp which brings me to a frozen water line. I have only two water lines that goes to my kitchen up an exterior wall and the cold line froze. All other water lines are on the interior walls of my house. I took a jabsaw and cut the drywall from under the sink to where I could get to both lines. I placed my wifes hair dryer on warm heat blowing on the lines leaving the faucet slightly on. I went into the basement under the kitchen and felt the ceiling and walls. I was very cold but the room is heated about 65 degrees. I dropped a four foot section of the ceiling so I could inspect the pipes and saw where it went to the kitchen. As soon as the section of ceiling was removed I could feel lots of cold air. There is insulation (R11) folded over in between each floor joist touching the rim joist. I had some left over pipe insulation that I put in my garage so I started installing starting at kitchen sink. The line thawed and I checked the hose bibs in basement and nothing broke so I installed pipe insulation about 2' from exterior wall. Back in the kitchen I could feel the coldness in the kitchen cabinets so I'm thinking the builders used R11 in the walls also.

If I hire an insulation company and have them use spray foam between the floor joist at the rim joist would that correct this problem? The kitchen floor gets very cold and I thought that the cold air is sitting between the downstairs ceiling and floor joists and the R11 between the floor joist not doing much. If I drop the entire ceiling would the room temp keep the floor warmer?

House is a brick ranch build in 1973 and the kitchen is in the addition that was built in 1982. I was going to check with local code department and see if they have the building plans and permits still on file to see what was used. The foundation is poured concrete.
Attached Thumbnails
Frozen water pipe - insulation question-photo-0189.jpg   Frozen water pipe - insulation question-photo-0190.jpg  
marriedmanw is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-07-2014, 07:40 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 97
Rewards Points: 129
Default


A quick google search and found an alternative being to cut and install 2" ridgid foam to the rim joist. I read that there is alot of air loss through the rim joist so this could be more cost efficient than hiring a spray foam company. I could install the ridgid foam then put the R11 back in front of it. This fall I did spray some expanding foam around doors and windows, then used silcone caulk around anchor bolts under deck.
marriedmanw is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-07-2014, 08:30 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,158
Rewards Points: 6,652
Default


It is actually warmer in the Artic right now, then it is here. The reason your pipes are freezing, is not due to the outdoor temperatures. It is due to you have air leaks, allowing outdoor air to get into that area, between the false ceiling and floor above.

That means taking all of those panels down, take down all of that insulation, and go around and use XPS around the perimeter where the Rim band is. You do have to use Caulk & foam, to seal any gaps coming into the house, then use two layers of 2" XPS foam cut tight to fit in those joist areas, and then either use Great Stuff, or Caulk to hold & seal the panels in those areas.

Also without any heat getting into the area between the false ceiling and floor above, it will always be cold. Especially if the basement is cold to start off with. Get the basement heated, gaps and openings sealed, and above all for right now, take out some panels, and place some space heat down in the basement, to warm the area.

I have two 1500 watt heaters running in my basement right now, due to it was getting down to 48f without the heat running down there at night. During the day, my basement stays around 62f, without any supplemental heat.



gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-07-2014, 08:34 PM   #4
Solutions (handyman)
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Central Alberta Canada
Posts: 455
Rewards Points: 492
Default

Insulation issues


After reading your information I can answer a few concerns. I live in the Edmonton area on Alberta Canada, so I can relate to cold, drafts, and frozen pipes. My first concert is that the pipes are on the outside wall. I assume they can't be moved? If they can, that would be the best bet so the issue won't resurface in years to come.As to thawing out the pipes with a hair dryer, you were lucky! If you heat an area of frozen pipe inbetween or in the middle of a long length of frozen pipe, you melt the section where you are heating, but this may also cause the pipe to split due to steam or jaut the extra pressure. Buy a heat tape, which is a low heat electrical line that you litterally tape onto the pipe. Loews or Home Depot or any other home improvement store should have them. As to insulation, think about what insulation really does. It keeps heat in or out but also keep cold in or out (like a thermos bottle). Find the source of the cold and see if that can be fixed. Perhaps you could run a heating vent to that location. Also, Use a vapour barrier (6ML Plastic) over the walls and tight around any potential openings. Use "TuckTape" to make things air tight. The foam insulation has pros and cons, check the internet and decide. I'm not crazy about the stuff due to potential gasses and other health concerns. I Liks Roxul (if available in your area, check it out). Hope this helps
Regards, Mark
Mark Harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 03:46 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 97
Rewards Points: 129
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
That means taking all of those panels down, take down all of that insulation, and go around and use XPS around the perimeter where the Rim band is. You do have to use Caulk & foam, to seal any gaps coming into the house, then use two layers of 2" XPS foam cut tight to fit in those joist areas, and then either use Great Stuff, or Caulk to hold & seal the panels in those areas.

Also without any heat getting into the area between the false ceiling and floor above, it will always be cold. Especially if the basement is cold to start off with. Get the basement heated, gaps and openings sealed, and above all for right now, take out some panels, and place some space heat down in the basement, to warm the area.
Thanks for help. I was amazed at the amount of cold air between the false ceiling and subfloor. We have removed all ceiling tiles and I have a oil filled radiant heater running these next few cold nights. The main furnance trunk line runs through the basement but there is no ducting to this basement room yet. When the house addition was build a 36" doorway was cut through the orginial foundation wall for access. I will start installing 2" pactiv extruded polystyrene foam board cut to fit between each floor joist against the rim joist. Do I remove the fiberglass R11 that runs between the floor joist for the entire room? The little pieces of R11 that is used at the rim joist I'll just throw away. Once the parameter of house is insulated and sealed, we want to sheetrock the basement ceiling. Should the floor joist be insulated or left void?

This is the site I saw the other day. Seems like a good diy project. http://www.familyhandyman.com/baseme...oists/view-all
marriedmanw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 04:32 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 97
Rewards Points: 129
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Harvey View Post
I assume they can't be moved? If they can, that would be the best bet so the issue won't resurface in years to come.
Yes, I would not see any problems moving the water lines since it can be accessed from basement. Plumbing is the only DIY project that I do not do so I'll ask my plumber. I'll be starting my project of installing 2" foam against rim joist next week so hopefully I'll see my plumber before that and have him drop by for quote.
marriedmanw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 05:07 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,158
Rewards Points: 6,652
Default


I actually was running this heater down in my basement, for the past two days. http://www.menards.com/main/heating-...10-c-12881.htm It actually put out enough heat, to keep our basement at 68f, with outdoor temps at below zero. Now that it is warming up, it is going back into storage in my basement, until the next Cold snap.





gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 05:09 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,158
Rewards Points: 6,652
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by marriedmanw View Post
Thanks for help. I was amazed at the amount of cold air between the false ceiling and subfloor. We have removed all ceiling tiles and I have a oil filled radiant heater running these next few cold nights. The main furnance trunk line runs through the basement but there is no ducting to this basement room yet. When the house addition was build a 36" doorway was cut through the orginial foundation wall for access. I will start installing 2" pactiv extruded polystyrene foam board cut to fit between each floor joist against the rim joist. Do I remove the fiberglass R11 that runs between the floor joist for the entire room? The little pieces of R11 that is used at the rim joist I'll just throw away. Once the parameter of house is insulated and sealed, we want to sheetrock the basement ceiling. Should the floor joist be insulated or left void?

This is the site I saw the other day. Seems like a good diy project. http://www.familyhandyman.com/baseme...oists/view-all
Yes, you always remove any Fiberglass batts from the spaces, and only put in the XPS foam, or use Tigerfoam for sealing. If you search through these forums, it is a regular thing that is talked about all of the time.

Buildingscience.com has a lot of goo information on air sealing and insulating.



gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 08:56 PM   #9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,730
Rewards Points: 526
Default


Zone 4; R-13 required in wall/rim joist. Rim joist foam board R-5 XPS plus R-13 =48*F temp at inside face of FB, safe to 49%RH in floor. R-10 (2"XPS) = temp of 52*F on FB= 58%RH and below = no condensation.
http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCode...state=Virginia

http://virginia.stateguidesusa.com/a...-in-virginia?/

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...r-requirements

http://www.diychatroom.com/f103/how-...simply-190336/

Gary
__________________
If any ads are present below my answer or words underlined/colored, I do not condone/support/use the product or services listed/linked to, they are there without my consent.
17,000 dryer fires a year, when did you last clean the inside of the dryer near motor or the exhaust ducting?
Gary in WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 07:52 PM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 97
Rewards Points: 129
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary in WA View Post
Zone 4; R-13 required in wall/rim joist. Rim joist foam board R-5 XPS plus R-13 =48*F temp at inside face of FB, safe to 49%RH in floor. R-10 (2"XPS) = temp of 52*F on FB= 58%RH and below = no condensation.
http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCode...state=Virginia

http://virginia.stateguidesusa.com/a...-in-virginia?/

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...r-requirements

http://www.diychatroom.com/f103/how-...simply-190336/

Gary
Thanks Gary. After reading your post above I went back to store and got some foil face foam board to put into cavitity after caulking, then I will add 2" XPS over that, then use expanding foam from can to hold in.
The XPS is slight more expensive than the EPS but has higher R value so that is good factor. Most of the cold air has lifted from SW Virginia now so hopefully it will not be that cold for another 20 years.

Thanks to all for replies.

Last edited by marriedmanw; 01-09-2014 at 07:53 PM. Reason: spelling
marriedmanw is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to marriedmanw For This Useful Post:
Gary in WA (01-09-2014), gregzoll (01-09-2014)
Old 01-10-2014, 06:52 AM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 97
Rewards Points: 129
Default


Sorry to be a pest but I want to ensure I'm going about this correctly. The foil faced part needs to go against the rim joist? Since the foil is only on the one side I wanted to verify since I could not tell after reading the instructions from Garys post.
marriedmanw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2014, 08:01 AM   #12
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 26,108
Rewards Points: 1,022
Blog Entries: 41
Default


The foil would go to the interior surface (warm wall) if that were the case.

Don't bother with the foil faced ISO board. Use the Extruded Polystyrene (XPS) and double it up.

When you are done with the foam, be sure to cover it with some sort of batt insulation for ignition and thermal protection if it is an exposed foam.
Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2014, 04:15 PM   #13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,730
Rewards Points: 526
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Windows on Wash View Post
The foil would go to the interior surface (warm wall) if that were the case.

Don't bother with the foil faced ISO board. Use the Extruded Polystyrene (XPS) and double it up.

When you are done with the foam, be sure to cover it with some sort of batt insulation for ignition and thermal protection if it is an exposed foam.

I agree with the first statement. The foil facing acts like a Class 1 vapor barrier at 0.03 perms-per inch; effectively stopping diffusion. In fact, XPS would require a thickness of 32" to get to 0.344 perms- the same permanence of PIC. The foil also reflects some of the heat from the room, ensuring the foam is getting full R-value of its rating.

Polyiso is "greener" in both the fire retardant additive and the blowing agents compared to XPS; http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/ar...the-Beginning/

Cheaper/easier in buying only one product with a (dual-purpose) foil facer bonded to it. The foil and additives are fire-rated to be left exposed in unfinished basements/rim areas without a thermal (drywall) or ignition (fiberglass batt) barrier on it; http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litor...5.pdf&pdf=true

Gary
__________________
If any ads are present below my answer or words underlined/colored, I do not condone/support/use the product or services listed/linked to, they are there without my consent.
17,000 dryer fires a year, when did you last clean the inside of the dryer near motor or the exhaust ducting?
Gary in WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2014, 11:55 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 33
Rewards Points: 25
Default


These are the few steps to prevent from frozen pipes :

The pipes that are most prone to freezing are the ones situated in basements and crawl spaces, attics, garages, or kitchen cabinets. Studies conducted by the University of Illinois have proved that wind chill can speed up the process and lead to burst water pipes. The size of the pipes and the material they are made of also play a small part in determining the speed of the freezing process.

Before the onset of cold weather, ensure that your water pipes are sufficiently insulated. Insulation sleeves and wrapping made of foam rubber or fiberglass are available at most hardware stores, certainly in colder states and regions. Leaks that allow cold air to enter the area where the pipes are located must be sealed off. For instance, cracks and holes in outside walls and foundations can be sealed with caulking. Garden hoses must be shut off and disconnected, and an indoor valve can be used to close the pipes and drain the water from the pipes that lead to faucets outside.


The thermostat should be kept at the same temperature during the day and at night. Lowering it at night can lead to the pipes freezing since temperatures tend to drop at nights. Keep your garage doors closed in winter since water supply lines run through there. The kitchen and bathroom cabinet doors, on the other hand, should be left open frequently to allow the warm air to get there. A heat lamp maybe used to warm the pipes if required.

f you will not be at home during the winter, then you should prepare beforehand to safeguard your water pipelines. The thermostat should be at a minimum of 55 F. Do not compromise for the sake of lowering your electricity bills. Doing so may only lead to additional costs in the form of plumbing repairs. One drastic measure is to fully drain the water system. This is done by shutting off the main valve and letting the water run from every faucet till there is no more water coming out. This method is recommended only if you live in a region where there are concerns of a serious freeze. This could the case if you live in Maine, Minnesota, Michigan, and other northern and even some Midwest states. However, it could also happen in states such as California and Arizona if you live above 2,000 feet or so in elevation.

In some instances, a long term solution might be essential to deal with the issue of frozen pipes. This might involve having to move the pipelines to another place altogether (such as underground or inside). In addition to this, the amount of insulation may have to be increased to keep the pipes warm or at least from freezing.
michelclarke is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water heater hot pipe noise streetneons Plumbing 4 01-10-2013 09:17 PM
how water Pastic pipe insulation s002wjh Insulation 5 01-02-2012 11:16 AM
Tape for hot water pipe insulation raleighthings Plumbing 0 12-27-2011 11:45 AM
Basement drain pipe "pit" ground water fix. alecmcmahon General DIY Discussions 13 12-01-2010 05:42 AM
Reclaimed water pipe (Purple PVC) repair and glue question smcmurrey Plumbing 3 07-07-2008 09:49 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts