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Old 03-26-2019, 06:04 PM   #46
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


There is an expansion tank. That is the only one. Boiler is 18 years old, and was very efficient when new. He did test it during the energy assessment; but he did not share his results, he only said it was 'fine.'
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Old 03-27-2019, 02:13 PM   #47
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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Originally Posted by djlandkpl View Post
The Massave program seems to be administered differently by region of the state. I've had two energy audits and both times they did blower door tests. They can't tell you how leaky your house is without doing the test.

I would insist on a blower door test before doing anything. With them recommending both rim joist and attic sealing, you could wind up with a house that's too tight.

I spoke w/ Mass Save today. He said it is very rare for them to do a blower test at an assessment. THe equipment is costly, bulky, and it takes time to set up and run. So it is only done on the work date. He said if you have gas, esp. if you are with Columbia Gas (lol, Sept 13), if you have a very new construction, and a few other things, then they MAY do a blower test as part of the assessment. Otherwise, no. I didn't know which city you are in, etc. to get him to be more specific; he ended up assuming you are a neighbor of mine.
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Old 03-27-2019, 02:19 PM   #48
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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Well, I give up. Their term "62.5 CFM50 per hour" doesn't make any sense. Here's what i know.
A blower door measures air leakage in terms of air flow (CFM cubic feet per minute) at 50 Pascals negative pressure. A typical number might be 2000 CFM ant it would be referenced as 2000 CFM50. If they wanted a per hour number they would multiply that by 60 (minutes per hour), but no one uses that number.

Bud

Spoke w/ Mass Save today. He said it is 62.5 CFM50 "per hour of air sealing." Work hours spent doing the air sealing, based on sq feet area to be sealed. I have 8 hours of work here.


Hope that helps. Don't feel bad, it took him some time pondering, talking it over to himself, looking at the worksheet, to figure out what it meant. It is how they carry out the cost.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:20 PM   #49
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Fortunately your bottom line on that item is Zero. But but the dollar figure on that line divided by 8 hours is $92.50 so not sure where they get their math. In any case air sealing an attic should be closer to $200. I guess that is unless it is a government program with no one looking over their shoulder.

I was looking for some target value that is standard withing the energy business, such as 5 ACH50. That would hold them to a known standard. The links I gave you talk about the different ways air tightness can be judged.

But thank you, I just hope they do a good job as that is the real objective.

Bud
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:45 PM   #50
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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Originally Posted by Freedomsand View Post
I spoke w/ Mass Save today. He said it is very rare for them to do a blower test at an assessment. THe equipment is costly, bulky, and it takes time to set up and run. So it is only done on the work date. He said if you have gas, esp. if you are with Columbia Gas (lol, Sept 13), if you have a very new construction, and a few other things, then they MAY do a blower test as part of the assessment. Otherwise, no. I didn't know which city you are in, etc. to get him to be more specific; he ended up assuming you are a neighbor of mine.
I am Southeastern, MA near Mansfield and do have Columbia Gas. The program in this area is sponsored by Columbia Gas and not National Grid. Using the equipment as an excuse for not doing the test is lame. It's a door frame, a fabric cover and the blower itself. Less than 5 minutes to set up and another 5 to run their tests.
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:01 PM   #51
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Well, that is why you get the blower test with the assessment; Columbia Gas. No gas here, so that is not an option.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:03 AM   #52
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Update. Mass Save is here today.


1. Air sealing in the attic.
2. Adding the baffles at the eaves, in the attic.

3. Adding another layer of R38 batts in the attic.


And as always, things come up.


The kitchen fan over the stove . . . well, it is in the wall behind the stove, wall switch turns it on. Original to the house, circa 1956. Apparently it vents into the attic. And in terms of building code, that is fine. They can't do their energy improvement work unless I approve venting that outside. OK fine. They wanted to put it out the side wall, which would have put it through the vinyl siding and 'over' the flat roof of the garage. I said no, got straight up and out through the roof. They will do it that way, but they aren't happy.


Re making the house "too tight." They are going to monitor that with the blower. The initial test, before any work, showed a reading of 1100, and for this size home, can go down to 690. I was told the air sealing will change this figure; but the added layer of insulation will not change it much at all as air moves through insulation.



Busy day, the dogs aren't too happy hahaaa.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:51 AM   #53
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Air sealing is most important and since a blower door measures leakage everywhere sealing in the attic where leaks lose more air will be more effective. Thus the performance will be better than their numbers will indicate.

It would be nice if they went for r-60 while they are up there, getting set up is the biggest part of the cost, but 38 will be good when air sealing is included.

Thanks for the update.

Bud
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:01 AM   #54
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Ahahaaa, @Bud9051 , never satisfied!


Mass Save will only subsidize adding 3 inches of insulation. I decided to pay for the R 38 myself.
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Old 05-03-2019, 10:13 PM   #55
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


might have to mass save come to me place mate
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Old 05-04-2019, 07:24 AM   #56
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


If you live in Massachusetts (you sound like an Aussie so I'm not sure where you live) it is worth it @jackallis The initial energy assessment is free. You get free LED bulbs, programmable thermostat installed, energy saver power strips, water filters at sinks, low flow shower head, all free. Option for wi fi programmable thermostat for a small fee. And recommendations re what more you can do to improve your home.


When I lived in RI we had a similar program, RI Saves. So if you are in another state, search for it in your state.

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Old 05-04-2019, 08:41 AM   #57
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Sorry did not read all posts. Just caught you saying joist sealing with spray foam and having full 12" of insulation.


Insulation works by trapping air. If fiberglass is compressed, it loses the air pockets, therefore less insulating. If you want access, you must add raised walkway and not compress the insulation. Little flattening is ok, but not compressing 12" into 6 or 8 inch joist space.


Looks like mass-save is trying to give you max insulation at your expense. I disagree with sealing the joist bay with spray foam. It's expensive and does not do anything except willy nilly seal ANY suspect air leaks. If you are willing to diy, you can lift the batts away and inspect for open gaps in the drywall. Usually around the electricals and plumbing. Drywall is finished with compound which is effective air seal, but not if you slather over large gaps. Compound over large gaps will shrink and crack.


Everybody told you you need to understand how air seal and insulation is done. I think you need to start with basics and read what they mean. Asking pointed questions without understanding the basics means you won't understand the answers. Youtube has many videos. Some may seem pointless but you have to slug through them.
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Old 05-04-2019, 08:50 AM   #58
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Thanks @carpdad the work is completed. I'm not about to DIY my climbing ladder days are over; 60 y o female w/ 2 replaced knees and 1 replaced hip. Wandering around up there, trying to remain on the joists, lol, I KNOW I would land in the kitchen. Nope, that was not ever an option.



Mass Save pays for all the air sealing, so when you say it is expensive, that wasn't a factor.



Mass Save paid for the air sealing, plus 3 inches of insulation, installed. I paid the difference, and instead of the 3 inches, had one more layer of R38 installed. I should see a big improvement in my oil use next winter. Depending on price of oil, I may or may not see a change in out of pocket expenses, but I hope to see that as well.



Thanks again.
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:13 PM   #59
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Good lord, I would take that deal anyday.
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