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Old 03-26-2019, 04:54 AM   #31
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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Originally Posted by Freedomsand View Post
Hey since WHEN is Ontario south of Mass?!!!

Parts of Ontario always has been. I am in the most southern area. Your ID shows Northeastern Massachusetts. I am further South than you are.
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:47 AM   #32
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


The Massave program seems to be administered differently by region of the state. I've had two energy audits and both times they did blower door tests. They can't tell you how leaky your house is without doing the test.

My most recent audit was two weeks ago. Before they looked at anything, they talked about the importance of insulating rim joists and air sealing the attic. After they did their audit and the blower door tests, the results indicated that if I air sealed the house, I would have to have a bath fan on a timer to pull air out of the house to provide fresh air exchange. Needless to say, I'm not doing it.

Personally, I would go with blown in insulation on top of your batts. If you don't use the space, it's less expensive to install and gets into the nooks and crannies. You really want a blanket that covers the joists.

I would insist on a blower door test before doing anything. With them recommending both rim joist and attic sealing, you could wind up with a house that's too tight.
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:55 AM   #33
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


More reason for me to call Mass Save and find out what's what. Thanks for the info.


BTW, no way re blown in insulation. Not in THIS house. Never.
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:09 AM   #34
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Just so you will know, I'm still working on a reply. Just stuck on their "62.5 CFM50 per hour" terminology. That doesn't seem to match normal targets.
Here are some of the more common ways to reference air leakage. When I figure out what their number represents I'll post.

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Old 03-26-2019, 08:35 AM   #35
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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BTW, no way re blown in insulation. Not in THIS house. Never.
Just curious, why the aversion to blown in?
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:10 PM   #36
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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Just curious, why the aversion to blown in?

My Dad and 2 of his brothers worked in construction. They always said "do NOT use blown in insulation. You have no idea how much lands where. You can have high spots, low spots, no spots. You can't be sure your edges are clear. You have no idea if any went down a wall and will pop out an electrical outlet. There is no consistency. One guy does it one way, next guy does it another, you can't even compare them. And the stuff they use, too many variations in that as well, can't be sure what you are getting. " And that's just the bit I remember! They could go on for half an hour (especially if you had all 3 of them talking together!) about the blown in stuff. So none of my cousins nor I have ever used it, nor will we ever use it. We were just trained that way!



Thank you.
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:29 PM   #37
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Well, I give up. Their term "62.5 CFM50 per hour" doesn't make any sense. Here's what i know.
A blower door measures air leakage in terms of air flow (CFM cubic feet per minute) at 50 Pascals negative pressure. A typical number might be 2000 CFM ant it would be referenced as 2000 CFM50. If they wanted a per hour number they would multiply that by 60 (minutes per hour), but no one uses that number.

Now, if they were shooting for the air changes per hour they would multiply the CFM50 by 60 and then divide the results by the volume of the house. As an example, if your house tested at the 2000 CFM50 we would multiply that by 60 and divide by the volume (est 16,000 ft³). 2000 x 60 all divided by 16,000 = 7.5 and the reference term would be ACH50 (air changes per hour at negative 50 Pascals). But that isn't very close to their 62.5 number.

I can't recreate their number or terminology so I have no idea what they are targeting for air tightness. Maybe I'm lost so welcome any help out there.

Bud
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:31 PM   #38
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Bud, remember, they did NOT DO any blower test.
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:44 PM   #39
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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My Dad and 2 of his brothers worked in construction........ So none of my cousins nor I have ever used it, nor will we ever use it. We were just trained that way!
Thank you.
Since these threads will be read by future visitors for decades I want to add to that statement. It is called old school training where every contractor learned from those who came before them. Since they did not have "Building Science Corporations" and Oak Ridge National Laboratories" that method was the best schooling available. One of the energy challenges we face today is changing some of those mindsets as modern science has made tremendous improvements in the construction industry and materials used.

That said, there is nothing wrong with good old fiberglass insulation as long as it is installed correctly. And incorrect installation is what basically what you were describing for the blown-in problems. Done right either will work.

Thanks,
I had to add that.
Bud
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:49 PM   #40
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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Bud, remember, they did NOT DO any blower test.
I realize that but the price list you put up in post #24 indicates they will air seal to the 62.5 CFM50 per hour. So they will be doing a blower door test if and when they do the air sealing.

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Old 03-26-2019, 04:42 PM   #41
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


I have been trying to figure out if I use more oil now than I did before the work last year. I asked my oil company if they can tell me, the woman on the phone said there is a lot of info on the chart but she doesn't know what it means. She sent me the chart.


I know I used more gallons. I want to factor in the weather; was it colder in Jan and Feb this year than last, and if so how to adjust for that. Do these charts tell me?

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Old 03-26-2019, 05:04 PM   #42
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Not getting much out of those charts.

With oil it is really difficult because the deliveries don't correspond to the heating degree data, which is monthly. We can use the daily numbers and add them up but more difficult.

Can you give me a close big city so I can look at how their HDD (Heating Degree Days) compare with last year?

Bud
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:24 PM   #43
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


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Not getting much out of those charts.

With oil it is really difficult because the deliveries don't correspond to the heating degree data, which is monthly. We can use the daily numbers and add them up but more difficult.

Can you give me a close big city so I can look at how their HDD (Heating Degree Days) compare with last year?

Bud

Dunno what you consider a "big city" for these purposes, lol.
Lawrence MA or

Manchester NH




either should be fine.
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:30 PM   #44
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


Oh cool! I found BizEE degree days web site! THAT was one piece I needed! Thank you. Looks like Jan and Feb in 2019 were colder than in 2018.
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:40 PM   #45
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Re: Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations


There you go. Often I need a city at a similar latitude, like Albany, and then have to find a weather station. But you live there so faster.

Now, with the HDD and some magic you can calculate your gallons per HDD. Some oil companies do this to schedule deliveries.

Another question I didn't ask before is how your hot water is heated by your boiler. The two methods are a freestanding water tank that uses a circulator to heat the water. The other method pulls the water through a coil inside the boiler. The first method is far more efficient and the second is the most expensive. Both require the boiler to stay on all summer. We can get into your boiler efficiency if you think that will help reduce those oil bills.

Bud
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