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Old 08-13-2014, 02:15 PM   #16
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Contacting them for price and availability is the only way to know whether they are actually in production.
You can also ask for locations of already installed units, if any.
See if you can contact those owners and get the owners feedback on how well they are working.

I would caution you about the performance specs they have posted. They appear very optimistic.

I have seen a number of these unconventional roof top turbines appear over the years. Every one of them has disappeared. Some were scams, others just did not perform as promised. This doesn't mean that someone will not some day develop one. But they are fighting several technical problems.

Keep your eyes and ears open, and proceed with caution.

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Old 08-13-2014, 03:00 PM   #17
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Here is an article on conventional vs unconventional designs.
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/page.cfm?pageID=3389
On Hugh Piggott's site there is a link to a presentation by Mick at the 2009 Small Wind Conference. (you need to sign in to igoogle for the presentation to load.)
http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2011/01/thi...rn-small-wind/

Last edited by Oso954; 08-13-2014 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 08-17-2014, 05:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
Contacting them for price and availability is the only way to know whether they are actually in production.
You can also ask for locations of already installed units, if any.
See if you can contact those owners and get the owners feedback on how well they are working.

I would caution you about the performance specs they have posted. They appear very optimistic.

I have seen a number of these unconventional roof top turbines appear over the years. Every one of them has disappeared. Some were scams, others just did not perform as promised. This doesn't mean that someone will not some day develop one. But they are fighting several technical problems.

Keep your eyes and ears open, and proceed with caution.
Hmmm. I see.

Oki, I will proceed with caution, but then again in my head there is usually a natural deduction of what is stated in the spec. Thanks for the heads up on the scammers, I'm usually very careful before committing to anything, but it's good to keep aware.

Let's see what they come up with

Thanks for tips!

/Pat
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:47 AM   #19
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Best power management for electricity production is solar energy is the best option as well as on the roof side is good opportunity for that produces power management.
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Old 12-16-2014, 08:21 PM   #20
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I'm grid tied with 6, 250 watt panels. A plug and play set up. Micro inverters mounted under the panels. Plugged into an outlet. It's working great and keeps my meter from moving too far forward. I might add some more panels in the future. dorf dude...
i like this, but how much the cost
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:33 PM   #21
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i like this, but how much the cost
Before you even think about pricing, check with your Power Company and your Building Dept about backfeeding a receptacle with Solar Power.

Shumakerscott lives in Germany where the authorities have approved of his type of installation. (the inverter immediately shuts down on loss of grid power)

You do not want to invest in a system that the authorities will make you remove when they learn about it.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:28 PM   #22
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I have 38 solar panels on my roof. I think my maximum production is 9.5 kW, or something like that, but the most I've ever seen was about 8.5 kW. On a typical day, my system produces about 30 to 40 kWh. On one completely sunny and cloudless day in June, it produced 65 kWh and on stormy days in December, it produced 5 kWh. The system is supposed to last 20 years with efficiency decreasing at about 0.5% every year.

I'm connected to the electrical grid. This means that during the day, my solar panels feed electricity into the electrical grid and my electrical meter runs backward. At night, I use electricity from the grid and my electrical meter runs forward. Essentially, the grid is my storage battery. At the end of the month, if my electrical meter number is more than at the start of the month, I have to pay for the difference. If the electrical meter is less, I get credits and I only pay the base connection fee of $17. The electrical "credits" also carry over for about a year. Naturally, this requires permits. In Hawaii, getting a permit for this isn't as easy as it was two years ago http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...staller-Market

The cost for the system was about $1000 per panel. Federal and state tax rebates cut the price to about $500 per panel.

The reason I got solar panels was as an investment to save money. Electricity rates in Hawaii are about $0.35 per kWh; three times the national average. My monthly electricity bill was about $250. By my calculations, the system should pay for itself in about 6-7 years. If electricity rates were a mere $0.10 per kWh, I think the system would die before it paid for itself.
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:58 PM   #23
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"The reason I got solar panels was as an investment to save money. Electricity rates in Hawaii are about $0.35 per kWh; three times the national average. My monthly electricity bill was about $250. By my calculations, the system should pay for itself in about 6-7 years. If electricity rates were a mere $0.10 per kWh, I think the system would die before it paid for itself."

Good point. It all depends on how much a Kw costs. In Germany we pay around the same price as Hawaii. This year I got a 556 Euro refund from the Electric company. The PV panels are helping. I'm going to re-invest in a couple more panels.
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Old 12-19-2014, 10:42 AM   #24
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Solar will have real application value and be financially feasible, without the state local and federal credits, once the battery technology comes around.

The reality at this point is home power generation via solar panels does nothing to lessen the strain on the grid.

As soon as the battery technology comes up you'll start to see a lot more off grid homes in situations where the grid won't need to be updated were expanded to handle the additional capacities.
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Old 12-19-2014, 02:47 PM   #25
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Battery storage has a long way to go before widespread solar panel adoption. The "holy grail" of battery storage is the $100 kWh battery and Eton Musk (bless his soul) is doing a rather fine job of getting there. http://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/05/...port-predicts/ Unfortunately, a $100 kWh battery does not work financially.

In Hawaii, I pay $17 per month just to be connected to the grid. As stated above, if I use more electricity than I produce, I have to pay for the difference. If I produce more, I only pay the $17 fee. I use about 30 kWh per day. Now I donít know any formula for figuring out how much battery backup capacity I would purchase if I wanted to go this route, but to me, one day's worth seems like a reasonable estimate.

At $100 per kWh battery x 30 kWh = $3000 of batteries. Spending $3000 to save $17 a month for 5-7 years (the life of a battery) is a horrible investment.

Consider however, that my electric company has proposed raising the monthly connection fee from $17 to $55. http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/n....html?page=all Even at $55, it still may not be worthwhile. The payback is about 4.5 years; slightly less than the life of the battery. At that slight savings, I donít think the risk of the batteries dying on me, having to worry about sun, purchasing a backup generator in case it is cloudy for four or five days straight, and losing basement space is worth the small savings.
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Old 12-22-2014, 04:26 PM   #26
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The "holy grail" of battery storage is the $100 kWh battery
While it may be the "holy grail" of battery storage for an EV, what does that have to do with solar ?

Even if he produces a $100/kw EV battery, you would need to be a battery engineer to reconfigure one to work at PV system voltages. And it won't be cheap to do.

The only spec I've seen on his batteries is 1000+ cycles. Good deep cycle battery banks (lead acid) already have much higher cycle lives (when sized properly).

Your biggest problem is your 30kwh load. You would need to trim that dramatically to be able to store it all. Conservation is always cheaper than generation, and even less as compared to generation and storage.

I didn't see any additional costs for your Inverter(s) factored into your numbers. Grid tie only inverters will not work with batteries.
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Old 12-22-2014, 05:32 PM   #27
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Oso954, The $100 kWh battery was just a really general estimate of what a cheap battery storage system would cost. If you're trying to convince me it would actually cost more for the foreseeable future, then I have no disagreement with you.

Also, even if I did reduce my electricity by 1/3 to 20 kWh a day, a 20 kWh battery at something close to $2000 would still be a really poor investment if I'm paying a $17 per month connection fee.

As for conservation costs vs. generation costs. You need to take into account government tax credits. There are times when redoing the wiring in an old house to be more efficient is actually more expensive that just throwing a couple more panels on the roof of a house. Or perhaps kicking someone out of a house just to save electricity may not be the best savings idea either, especially if that person pays rent.

Sure turning off lights when not in use, buying energy efficient appliances, and making an overall effort to save electricity helps, but there is a point when conservation gets more expensive than generation.
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Old 12-22-2014, 06:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
The $100 kWh battery was just a really general estimate of what a cheap battery storage system would cost.
Cheap battery systems cost more over time, than higher quality ones. The only reason to by a cheap battery bank is a beginner is more likely to kill his bank than someone who has experience operating and maintaining one.

In solar service, a high quality deep cycle battery bank can easily outlast 3 cheaper battery banks. Even more if the cheap banks are not sized, operated and maintained in the same way.

Quote:
There are times when redoing the wiring in an old house to be more efficient is actually more expensive that just throwing a couple more panels on the roof
Rewiring a house has a lot more to do with electrical safety than efficiency. Devices connected to the wiring is where the better efficiency happens.
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Old 12-23-2014, 12:10 AM   #29
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Here is why batteries play into this. It's in German but the picture tells the story. http://greenakku.de/Wechselrichter/T...ge5btt5d9gect0

It's a combo inverter/controller. I'm still kicking around a couple of ideas for one. dorf dude...
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Old 12-23-2014, 06:14 PM   #30
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My first challenge is the wind turbine mount. I had in mind a flag pole type mast with guide wires. After building, a local ordnance inspector will give it an engineering approval.
Unless I'm misundestanding your post, you intend to build your mount and then ask the inspector for approval?? Very bad idea. What if he says it's a hazardous piece of junk and orders you to tear it down?

I suggest you discuss your plans with your local building department before doing anything else, since whatever you do will likely require a permit. Also, there are still locations in the U.S. where such turbines are illegal in residential areas simply because the building department has no classification for such a structure and therefore won't issue a permit unless it's supported by more engineering analysis than you'll ever want to pay for.

If you want to experiment with solar, I'd suggest PV panels instead. I'm installing some now. I already know they won't pay for themselves in my lifetime (I'm 66) but I'm an inveterate DIYer and tinkerer, and just want to try them. With my 3.5-ton heat pump and 5hp well pump, going off the grid is out of the question.

Kits are available that are nearly "plug and play." Mine cost around $4,000, but with Federal and State tax credits, my out-of-pocket expense is only about $1600. I don't have any batteries; mine is a simple grid-tie system with reverse metering. Approval from the local PoCo was of course required, but easily obtained by submitting the appropriate paperwork and system diagrams. They will change out my meter at no cost to me. Installation of the system itself is actually quite simple and nearly complete. This time of year, the weather's the biggest issue. My panels are ground-mounted, not on the roof.

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