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Old 08-10-2011, 09:56 AM   #31
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What is a reasonable cost?


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Originally Posted by Omegaroofer View Post
Im guessing that just an estimate sheet?? That wouldn't make a good contract since there is nowhere to sign.... Let alone some of the reasons before mentioned.
Get other bids and please post.. This will be close to the low bid and I bet the bidding doesn't go higher then 20k .. I would even say 16-17.. but there is some high bidders in here.. lol
I ran some real quick math through my spreadsheet. I would be $13-15k maybe more but I don't know the true details of the roof.


I won't run an estimate if at least one home/property owner is not present. This is so I can meet with the customer, et to know who I am goign to be issuing alot of credit to and make sure I trust them, get a feeling for what they want and inform them of their options. I don't think it's a bad thing that the roofing company insists you are present. However mot companies use this as an excuse to hard sell, and that's not my style.

LOL sat photo? I can measure just about any roof I have ever seen from the ground, simple geometry and I can figure out rafters, pitch etc... Ummm 12/12 is not double 8/12, double 8/12 is 16/12. LOL

harnesses are now pretty much an absolutel MUST on any shingle roof due to OSHA code changes. The toe boards are a must doe to common sense, that OSHA does not posess. Anyone on your roof should be roped off, regardless of company.

"Oh your roof has hail damage...." Storm chaser "Please sign this agreement...." you lost your power of attorney.


Wait a 22' ladder isn't tall enough? This is a tall sucker, add $1k to my estimated price above.

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The information found in this post is not to be considered legal advice. All information should be considered relative, not specific. Never attempt any repairs you are not comfortable with. Always maintain safety! The author of this post takes no responsibility for any losses that occur. Use at your own risk.
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:51 AM   #32
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What is a reasonable cost?


Here is a picture from the back of the house. Tonight I'll see if I can get one of the valley.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:40 PM   #33
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[quote=Mr Smiley;704113]Update


I had two roofers out lastnight.

First roofer said He is going to have to get a satalight photo of my roof to take the measurements because its too steep.

Eagle view,,,,I use it too.

He also said they will have to use harnesses and walking nail strips on the roof.

That is a plus.Now if they use the safety equipment that is the question.

The Second roofer came out and his ladder was too short at 22 ft.


I have had sales people who had to reschedule appointments due to having the wrong equipment.Call me an a** but I send someone else out.

My reasoning is this.The customer calls.The sales person sets an appointment.It is up to the sales person to acquire as much information as possible.

Most homeowners have no idea how many layers they have.That's to be expected BUT most homeowners can tell you how many stories the structure is when asked.

I have yet to find a homeowner who could not tell me how many floors they have or even how many levels of windows are in the home either.


He was able to look at the valleys and said i am having 5 out of 6 nail pops per shingle.


Nail pops?,,,,Do you mean the nails backed out of the roof deck?

And i have little to no gravel left on those shingles. He is coming back on Friday afternoon or Saturday morning.

I hope you have little or no gravel on your shingles too.

I would be more concerned with granule loss.That is what he meant.





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Old 08-10-2011, 09:48 PM   #34
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Wow so many typos. I hadn't had my morning coffee yet. LOL
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Sometimes the savings that comes from doing it yourself can be blown away with one mistake.

The information found in this post is not to be considered legal advice. All information should be considered relative, not specific. Never attempt any repairs you are not comfortable with. Always maintain safety! The author of this post takes no responsibility for any losses that occur. Use at your own risk.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:20 PM   #35
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What is a reasonable cost?


XXX Roofing & Insulation Systems Inc.

Columbus, IN 47202-1683


DATE ESTIMATE #
08/10/2011 3574
EXP. DATE

ADDRESS
Steven
St.
Columbus, IN 47201
Description Amount

ROOF TYPE: CertainTeed Landmark Dimensional Shingles. CertainTeed Shadow Ridge accessory will be
installed along with CertainTeed Swift Start for upgraded 110 MPH Wind Warranty.

ROOF AREA: Entire Roof of Home.

SPECIFICATIONS: Remove and dispose of two layers of asphalt shingles.

Install new CT WINTERGUARD Ice and Water Shield in valleys.

Install new ROOFERS SELECT underlayment.

Install new Drip Edge.

Install new pipe boot flashing.
Install new box vents.

Chimney Flashing: Remove flashing and install ice and water shield along sidewall, then install new step
flashing, cut ringlet in mortar joint and counter flash, then install caulking.

WARRANTY: Lifetime Manufacturer's Warranty on material and a 10 Sure Start Protection Warranty.

Ground will be picked up daily of debris and a magnet will be used to pick up and metal debris.

TOTAL LUMP SUM: All labor, material, and disposal costs included.

** Discovery of any rotten decking will be replaced at the rate of $1.75 per square feet of 7/16 OSB. This
includes labor, material, and removal cost. Additional framing that maybe needed to correct deficiency will be
billed at a time and material basis.

SURE-START PLUS EXTENDED WARRANTY: 5-Star Please add $1100.00 Please
Initial____________________ Includes installing CT WINTERGUARD Around perimeter.
Not sure what this warranty is, but it sure is alot!

Overhead Care Club Please Initial_____________________

CCI Will take reasonable measures to protect windows, siding, landscaping, ect. (to the best of our abilities).
This includes covering landscaping and placing OSB sheets on windows and siding. CCI will not be held
responsible for any pre-existing damages.

Notice: Our price stated in this contract proposal is based upon current material prices. Because of raw material
price volatility, including the price of oil, our materials suppliers are unable to provide us with price protection
for the materials included in this proposal. Accordingly, should our material prices increase during the term of
this proposal, and during the time of performance of work contemplated by this proposal, our price for
performance of the work contemplated by this proposal shall be increased by such direct material cost increases.
11,021.000.00
50% Down/50% Complete. Payment is due upon completion of work. In theTOTAL $11,021.00
event it becomes necessary to enforce the terms of this agreement,or recover
sums due,customer agrees to pay reasonable attorney fees, court cost,
collection cost, plus interest at 12% per month or at highest rate allowed by law.

We now accept MasterCard and Visa.

Accepted By: Accepted Date:


I Guess your wife gets to keep her dog........ This quote came through an E-Mail and did have a letter head that was not from Wal-Mart. This is much better then the last one i recieved Still waiting on the Satalight guy and the short ladder guy.


Yes I was told that the Granuals not gravel are all but gone in the valleys. I also have no ice dam or any protection whatsoever at the current moment. I do have mails that are popping back out (Nail Pop?) You can see the round spots on the shingles.


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Old 08-11-2011, 01:33 PM   #36
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Is your roof 32 square? I would go broke in your area. Hard to believe. Work must be scarce. That is nuts.

Mail pops out? Maybe a new mailbox too.
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:06 PM   #37
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Is your roof 32 square? I would go broke in your area. Hard to believe. Work must be scarce. That is nuts.

Mail pops out? Maybe a new mailbox too.

Darn fat fingers!!! Nail pops.......
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:22 PM   #38
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What is a reasonable cost?


The sure start 5 star warranty means the manufacturer will stand behind the roof and honor the workmanship of the certified roofer. I mark this into all my shingle jobs as of last year. It's the difference between a 5 year guarantee and a 25 year guarantee. Think of it as an insurance policy.

Ice sheild in valleys only? No gutter lines? what abotu preflashing at chimneys, skylights, pipes walls etc? Any area to receive flashing we pre-flash with ice shield. Ahhh I read on, they are wrapping the chimney with ice shield, but what about the pipes and side walls? Seriously you need ice shield at the gutter lines, it's code in most areas.

FYI a sheet of ISB is 32 square feet, nobody replaces osb or plywood by the sq ft, they will be replacing full sheets or half sheets. Your roof probably isn't even OSB but is 1x boards based on the age it appears. get a price for 1x boards written into the proposal.

What is overhead care club?

$11k wow man, no wonder I don't get as many shingle jobs anymore as I used to in 2007. People are working for beer and cheese burgers.



Here are some things to consider. Yoru roof is a 2 day job. Will they tear it all off the first day and roof the 2nd day or will they tear off half and roof half then do the same the next day? Personally we only tear off as much as we can put back the same day. Some guys will tear off and felt it in (called a dry in), but a dry in makes me nervous and crazy and has a high probability of leakage.
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Old 08-11-2011, 06:36 PM   #39
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It's called cheap illegal labor fellas. They are working on volume. Even the cut throats up here would charge more than that.

To be honest, we would have to be completely out of work to even bid the house in that pic.

Insurance work is probably close to bottom of the barrel prices nowadays and even they would pay 5-10K more than that.

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Old 08-11-2011, 06:53 PM   #40
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No doubt MJW and Grumpy, its amazing that guys are giving the trade away.
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:18 PM   #41
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Looks easy. 2-3 day job. 4500 materials. 2500 labor. 4k profit.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:25 PM   #42
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Looks easy. 2-3 day job. 4500 materials. 2500 labor. 4k profit.
Bam, how much you paying your guys? $2,500 labor?! Ok let's do the math.

2,500 / 2 = $1,250 per day

1,250 / 8 = $250 per man per day for a 5 man crew ? Note this $250 includes burdens. Yes?

250 / 8 hours = $31.25 per hour.



$31.25 per hour. Let's reverse engineer that. I don't know what WC is in WI. here is 42%, but I think WI is 25%. Please confirm. I am basing this math on 25%.

So we have 25% WC + 9% GL + 18% FICA, FIDA, SUDA, + 10% UI. That's 62% labor burden.

So let's reverse that 31.25. Your paying your guys on average $19 an hour?

This doesn't even take into account over time. i don't know a roofing crew that doesn't work 12 hour days and 14-16 hours when needed. I don't even want to think what overtime will do to my formula. I dare speculate that $19 may drop to $15. Are you really paying your guys $15 an hour?



...and if this job goes into 3 days OMFG! OMFG! WHat are you thinking Bam? No wonder you're so busy. Has your insurance company audited you yet and has your acountant beat you over the head witha stick yet? If not I bet both will be coming soon. Either that or you know something about running a business that I do not and if so I bow to the greater. Please teach me.



I'm curious Bam, can you describe "profit" and all that it includes? I am assuming you meant "overhead" and profit. I can't put my finger on it but something is wrong with yours or mine math. D you check monthly profit and loss reports fo ryour corporation and do you look at each and every job P&L report?


I'm not saying you shoudl raise your prices because that would be collusion.... but.... I said the job would be $15k by me and nobody disagreed.


My suggestion, take it for what it's worth but it may be an eye opener, ask each and every estimate you write to see the competitors proposal. I'd be suprised if you wern't the cheapest 7 out of 10 times that they actually show. I for one ask each and ever customer who hires us for the competitors proposal. I call them scalps and have hundreds I have accumulated throughout the years. I can tell you over the last 2 years the only time I have been the cheapest is when I have made a mistake. I am often but not always the highest bidder. EXPERTISE COSTS MONEY. Don't undervalue your expertise.


Oh one last thing abotu scalps. I bought my house about 3 years ago. When I did I invited every roofer to the area to give me an estimate. I was shocked at the prices. You may be too. Let's just say at the time I wasn't as high priced as I thought I was. Some of the guys charged me then 3 years ago what I am charging now. $10k for a 25 square ranch 1 layer rip 3 years ago. All I am saying is making money is not illegal.
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Sometimes the savings that comes from doing it yourself can be blown away with one mistake.

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Last edited by Grumpy; 08-12-2011 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 08-13-2011, 07:51 AM   #43
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Bam, how much you paying your guys? $2,500 labor?! Ok let's do the math.

2,500 / 2 = $1,250 per day

1,250 / 8 = $250 per man per day for a 5 man crew ? Note this $250 includes burdens. Yes?

I only employ four roofers.

250 / 8 hours = $31.25 per hour.



$31.25 per hour. Let's reverse engineer that. I don't know what WC is in WI. here is 42%, but I think WI is 25%. Please confirm. I am basing this math on 25%.

Comp is 33%

So we have 25% WC + 9% GL + 18% FICA, FIDA, SUDA, + 10% UI. That's 62% labor burden.

UI is 6.60%

So let's reverse that 31.25. Your paying your guys on average $19 an hour?

This doesn't even take into account over time. i don't know a roofing crew that doesn't work 12 hour days and 14-16 hours when needed. I don't even want to think what overtime will do to my formula. I dare speculate that $19 may drop to $15. Are you really paying your guys $15 an hour?

Guys normally don't work more than 8 a day.

...and if this job goes into 3 days OMFG! OMFG! WHat are you thinking Bam? No wonder you're so busy. Has your insurance company audited you yet and has your acountant beat you over the head witha stick yet? If not I bet both will be coming soon. Either that or you know something about running a business that I do not and if so I bow to the greater. Please teach me.

I met with my accountant yesterday and got audited a month or so ago. I had to pay a few hundred more in my insurance. Accountant was surprised to see that I showed a 40k profit for this year so far, after all liabilities and overhead has been paid. I don't have much of an overhead.

I'm curious Bam, can you describe "profit" and all that it includes? I am assuming you meant "overhead" and profit. I can't put my finger on it but something is wrong with yours or mine math. D you check monthly profit and loss reports fo ryour corporation and do you look at each and every job P&L report?

I did mean overhead and profit. Profit is money that I and the company make off the job. I get a certain percentage and the company gets a certain percentage so it can expand. I check after every job. The last three jobs vary between 6k for a four day job and 3k for a two day job. (I have lost my shirt on a few though and only made a few hundred)

I'm not saying you shoudl raise your prices because that would be collusion.... but.... I said the job would be $15k by me and nobody disagreed.

Without seeing it and now realizing it is 32 square (doesn't seem like it by the picture I would be near the same.

My suggestion, take it for what it's worth but it may be an eye opener, ask each and every estimate you write to see the competitors proposal. I'd be suprised if you wern't the cheapest 7 out of 10 times that they actually show. I for one ask each and ever customer who hires us for the competitors proposal. I call them scalps and have hundreds I have accumulated throughout the years. I can tell you over the last 2 years the only time I have been the cheapest is when I have made a mistake. I am often but not always the highest bidder. EXPERTISE COSTS MONEY. Don't undervalue your expertise.

I know where a lot of the "competition is" and it disgusts me. I have quite a few proposals and can't believe the prices. I just lost one to a guy who bid it for $8500. Two layers, 38 square 100 feet valley and so on. I am not the highest and not the lowest. At $300 a square on a simple one layer gable to gable walker, I don't think I am underbidding. A few have recently been $600 a square but I am usually right around 350 - 375.

Oh one last thing abotu scalps. I bought my house about 3 years ago. When I did I invited every roofer to the area to give me an estimate. I was shocked at the prices. You may be too. Let's just say at the time I wasn't as high priced as I thought I was. Some of the guys charged me then 3 years ago what I am charging now. $10k for a 25 square ranch 1 layer rip 3 years ago. All I am saying is making money is not illegal.
I have thought about that but majority of them know me already. I was meeting with a customer when another roofer pulled up in the driveway. I walked out and he said "Hi, Im ____ you must be ____" I was surprised, I have never met the guy and didn't know who he was at all. Well, he undercut me by $1800 and got the job.
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Old 08-14-2011, 12:11 PM   #44
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Well you can do the math either way 4, 5 or 10. The point I was trying to make is I can't figure how you'd be so cheap. Then again you corrected yourself, and I agree it doesn't look like a 30 square job.


I aspire to be able to offer health insurance, paid vacations and 401k. Even at $15k that can't be done. The longer I am in this trade the more pathetic I think it is and the sicker it makes me.
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Old 08-14-2011, 02:55 PM   #45
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Well you can do the math either way 4, 5 or 10. The point I was trying to make is I can't figure how you'd be so cheap. Then again you corrected yourself, and I agree it doesn't look like a 30 square job.

I aspire to be able to offer health insurance, paid vacations and 401k. Even at $15k that can't be done. The longer I am in this trade the more pathetic I think it is and the sicker it makes me.
Grumpy, I was never saying that I would be at that price. I could see how guys could do it for that price.

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