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Old 02-17-2008, 12:01 PM   #1
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What kind of roof is this?


Hi,
I live in Virginia and just bought a house with a roof I've never seen before. I have to get a new roof put on in the next few years and are getting conflicting messages on how to proceed. We love the architecture, but some neighbors tell me it's called a "hot roof" because there is no airspace between the toungue-and-plank ceiling, dense insulation board and the shingles which leads to the roof aging faster than it should.

One company wants to "re-roof" my house by stripping off the old shingles, (ok, I've got two layers and that needs to happen anyway), install furring strips, new plywood over the whole roof, then add the tar paper, ice guard and shingles. They want to install new soffits that will promote airflow up through the new vent cap. All for the tune of a stripped down Ford Focus!

Do I have to do all that? I'm really concerned that it will compromise the architecture of the house. Can't I just strip off the old roof and put a new layer on top? The house was built in 1975 and has two layers on it currently, so each layer lasted about 15-20 years. (Last layer was put on in '91.)

Here's a photo of the soffit:




Thanks for any advice-

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Old 02-17-2008, 01:26 PM   #2
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What kind of roof is this?


I roofed a home exactly like yours in 2003, and I did exactly what your contractor suggested.

If you do not, most shingle manufacturers wil automaticaly null and void the long term warranty. Certainteed at least alows a limited 10 year materials only warranty on your existing scenario. Maybe some others do too, but I am not sure.

Even though the roof was done in 1991, I am sure this is not the first year that signs of premature deterioration were showing up. If you never went up there to inspect it, you most likely would not have noticed the deterioration from the ground.

I used 2" x 4"s laid verticaly, from eave edge to the ridge and screwed them down flat to the deck. I also had new 1/2" 4-ply cdx plywood installed over the entire roof surface. When we stripped off the old roofs, we noticed a tremendous amount of rot occurring on the top portions of the existing tongue and groove decking, which also needed replacement.

Remember, by raising the height of the decking, either a larger sheet metal drip edge flashing, or an extension to the existing fascia boards wil have to come into play.

Also, at that time, we used the Eave Drip Edge Vent, manufactured by Air Vent Corporation along all of the gutter eave edges, to allow for 100 % continuous fresh air intake ventilation and also, 100 % continuous Shingle Vent II Ridge Vent, also manufactured by Air Vent Corporation.

Another option, which would also require the new plywood decking, would be to install a vented rigid insulation board on top of the existing decking, and that comes with the plywood or osb board decking already attached to the insulation. This option wound up more costly at that time for the home owner, so he chose the other option previously described. Atlas insulation makes that vented insul-deck panel, and probably other manufacturers too.

It sounds like the contractor you are discussing this with, properly understands how to do your roof correctly and even though it may cost more now, your return on your investment wil be made up for in the long run.

Ed

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Old 02-19-2008, 08:57 PM   #3
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What kind of roof is this?


Ed is correct. So is that contractor.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:33 PM   #4
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What kind of roof is this?


Thanks,
Ugh, that's going to be one EXPENSIVE roof. I got one quote for about $7k to tear off and re shingle, and from the guy who wants to do what was outlined above about $12.5k. That's a LOT of money!

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, 2 x 4's will go on edge to support the new roof. This will add roughly 4-6 inches to my fascia board, correct?
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:35 AM   #5
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What kind of roof is this?


No, the 2" x 4"s can lay flat on the wide side down to the existing decking. All you are trying to achieve is to create an air flow space that will allow free balanced intake ventilation from the eaves through to the continuous exhaust ventilation along the ridge line.

The width of the 2" x 4" plus the thickness of the new 1/2" or thicker CDX plywood will be slightly higher than 2" over the entire surface.

It may sound more expensive in the beginning, but how much more expensive would it be if you find your brand new $7,500.00 roof failing in about 5 years or so, once again requiring replacement?

Ed

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 02-22-2008 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:03 AM   #6
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What kind of roof is this?


Point taken. (I know you're right, I was just hoping for a different answer.)

Thanks for your advise-
Christopher
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:53 AM   #7
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What kind of roof is this?


It sounds as though you currently have found a conscientious and knowledgeable contractor to work with, based on his specifications.

Now, determine from him, who will be in control of the actual installation process. Does his crew have the same understancing as the estimator/owner to properly fulfill the contract specifications.

As to see a home completed by the crew he uses, which would be similar to your home and ask to speak with the home owners and see hot the job progression and adherance to the specifications went.

Ed
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:05 AM   #8
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What kind of roof is this?


Question for my own knowledge. Isn't that just a standard planked deck which is common on older houses in the Northeast? Why can't you shingle over like any other roof?
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:39 AM   #9
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What kind of roof is this?


The roof decking is also the exposed ceiling, if I understood the original poster correctly.

Ed
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:34 PM   #10
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What kind of roof is this?


[quote=cwelte;99501]Thanks,
Ugh, that's going to be one EXPENSIVE roof. I got one quote for about $7k to tear off and re shingle, and from the guy who wants to do what was outlined above about $12.5k. That's a LOT of money!
[quote]

Get more quotes. I was quoted 7k for a full tearoff as well, ended up going with a local guy for $3,100.00. for the same end result.

As for installing an entire new deck with insulation, you need to perform a cost-benefit in order to see if it's worth it to invest another 5-6 grand just to extend the life of the new roof 10 years.
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:05 PM   #11
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What kind of roof is this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
Now, determine from him, who will be in control of the actual installation process. Does his crew have the same understancing as the estimator/owner to properly fulfill the contract specifications.
Ed
The quote I got was from a roofing company, not a general contractor. Great idea to check similar roof references. (I always check references, but for some reason I didn't think to ask for similar roofs.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
The roof decking is also the exposed ceiling, if I understood the original poster correctly.
Ed
Yes, there is the planking, then dense insulation (2" thick) then the shingles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky View Post
Get more quotes. I was quoted 7k for a full tearoff as well, ended up going with a local guy for $3,100.00. for the same end result.

As for installing an entire new deck with insulation, you need to perform a cost-benefit in order to see if it's worth it to invest another 5-6 grand just to extend the life of the new roof 10 years.
I wish I had the luxury of getting a bunch of estimates, but I don't. In my area of Virginia, I can choose from only a handful of licensed companies. I don't feel comfortable with someone I only know by first name. I've had a few people tell me "oh yeah, I had this guy Wayne put my roof on." No offense to Wayne or anyone else for that matter, but I the reassurance of a licensed, bonded, insured and established company with a proven track record. Especially when spending that much money.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get a roof for $3k? Before I moved here, my roof in Northeast Ohio cost $7.5k.
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:13 PM   #12
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What kind of roof is this?


There are alot of variable, besides profit, which go into a price.

There is another thread going on with similar questions, so, minus that 10 points guide I posted previously, here is some of what I had to tell the other poster.

Ed



"There are so many factors that go into a proper roofing project.

Firstly, disregarding anyones price, which contractor that you interviewed had the most knowledge and the most detailed specifications?

If it is not written down in the proposal, it is not part of the contract.

If the contractor who gave you the most confidence winds up being the higher priced contractor, please take the time to set up an additional appointment with him, and show the other proposal. Ask where he sees any vast disparities in the specifications.

If those differences are significant enough to you and you can see the benefit of the additional value of a properly trained and quality oriented work force and also if the specifications for the protection of your home, which is probably your most valuable asset, are the most proficient and precisely detailed, you may want to consider using that contractor instead.

Your roof is steep. It is dangerous to work on. Don't let anybody fool you about how they never have any accidents. They can happen.

Does the contractor use empoloyees or farm the job out to subcontractors? Is so, is the subcontractor licensed? Is he insured? Does he pay his employees with actual wages or does he hide the fact from the government and misclassify them as individual subcontractors?

How can you find that information out? Ask for the crew foremans name and one other roofer that will be on the crew working on your home. Then ask for the most current check stub which shows the taxes deducted. If they fail to provide you with this validation, they have something to hide. Period! Don't trust them from that point on.

Here, I just recently posted this in another topic thread, but it will be a valuable guide for you on how to choose a good contractor and what questions to ask them.

Follow the guidelines and most importantly, check on the items I just spoke of and also previous references.

Also, ask for a home owner who they had a problem job with and how they straightened it out to everyones mutual satisfaction. If they have been in business for any reasonable length of time, they will have had some obstacles in their desire to achieve customer satisfaction.

It is not as important that they had any problems, but more so, how did they react to resolve them. That will show their true character.

Ed"
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:17 PM   #13
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What kind of roof is this?


Also, I just copied this off of a friends MySpace Blog, and he goes by the User Name of "Grumpy" on the forums. His views shared in this article demonstrate how easily consumers can be mislead.

Ed

""Monday, January 07, 2008

Insurance scams in the home improvement industry
Current mood: aggravated
Category: Jobs, Work, Careers
You may have come to read this article thinking that I will speak of ways home owners scam their insurance companies, but that is not the topic of this discussion. Rather, the topic is to discuss how unqualified contractors scam their insurance to offer unrealisitc pricing.

Insurance is expensive. We all know this. What you might not know is that a properly classified roofing contractor will have an insurance rate of 41%. What does this mean? It simply means that in order to properly carry workman's compensation insurance 41% of payroll is paid off to an insurance company. For example if a skilled roofer is paid $20 an hour, as a skilled roofer is worth, 41% of this wage is paid to the insurance company. That is $8.20 per hour going to the insurance company per worker. If an average crew is 5 men, and an average work day 10 hours... you do the math.

So what methods do unqualified contractors use to cheat their insurance? A simple way is to be improperly classified. For example a company may carry carpentry insurance instead of roofing insurance. Carpentry insurance carries a rate of about 27%. Therefore that same $20 an hour ROOFER would be misclassified and his unqualified boss would only be paying $5.40 per hour or a savings of almost $2 per hour or again on a 5 man crew, or a savings of approximately $100 a day. On average there are 220 working days per year, again do the math.

Another method many liars and cheats will use is to improperly classify their employees as sub contractors. They will then avoid paying taxes, but will also tell their employees to get their own insurance for a rate of about $350 a year. You may be thinking, that is great, and you may be thinking each employee is covered by insurance... but this is simply not true. At this price of about $350 a year the employee is telling his insurance company that he is a company and telling the insurance company to exampt himself. Therefore nobody really has insurance, all they have is pieces of paper saying they have insurance.

When someone is exempt they are not covered. There is no insurance on that person.

One last sam is for the company to secure insurance, but then stop paying their monthly bills. This enables them to get a generic certificate of insurance showing that they are insured until some date, usually a year form the date the insurance is activated... but since they stopped paying for the insurance the insurance has lapsed and there are really is no insurance.

There are other tricks like having two bank accounts and purpously keeping really poor records so that when the insurance company comes to audit, and they audit at least once a year, they end up just asking for bank statements. Since there are multiple accounts only one or two accoutns are shown, and usually the bulk of the money funneled through the other accounts. Less money shown equals lower insurance. Again cheating!

Finally the most unscrupulous and underhanded method of cheating out on insurance and taxes is by just plain paying cash. Each employee is paid cash, no taxes are with held and since their is no "pay roll" there is nothing for the insurance company to charge against, so the contractor has a rate of about $350 a year.

You might be thinking this is great for you, the consumer, but is is NOT! When you cheat insurance you have none. Do you know the purpose of insurance? That's right! Insurance is there just in case something goes wrong. Just think of the cut corners these cheats and cons are taking, if they are taking corners on insurance. You are probably also getting slop work. If something were to happen, you wouldn't be covered because there really is no insurance; just a worthless piece of paper.

If some thing were to happen the claim would go to your home owners insurance, you seriously could potentially lose your property to an injured worker. Let's say everything goes smoothly during the project... Most of these companies who are cheating their insurance need to constantly be on the move not to be caught. They are changing names and phone numbers every few years. What does that mean for you? NO WARRANTY. And chances are likley something will eventually go wrong, since as I said before, these cheats and crooks are cutting corners all over.

What can you do to protect yourself?!

The answer is simple but it requires due dilligence on your part. First ALWAYS ask for a certificate of insurance shoing not only general liability but also workmans compensation. In some cases there may be two seperate certificates, and that's fine. NEXT you MUST conact the insurance companies. Make sure the policies are still in force. Also make sure the contractor is insured for what ever trade he is doing, roofing, electircal, plumbing etc... And if you are feeling really adventurous you might want to ask to be named as an ADDITIONAL INSURED on the policy. This means that if the policy is to laps you will be notified by the insurance company.

While you are at it, some other questions you might also want to aks include licensing and a list of refrences. Many trades are licensed, some are not. City licensing is pretty basic usually only requiring only a fee to be paid. State licensing is more stringent requiring examination and bonding to ensure financial stability.

To date the ONLY trades that are licensed in the state of IL include roofing, plumbing and electric. Protect yourself hire only reputable and legitimate contractors to work on your property. Protect yourself now so that you do not suffer later and remember that often when you hire the lowest bidder you are gambling... and do you really want to gamble on your largest investment?

Contact Thomas at Reliable American"
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:20 PM   #14
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What kind of roof is this?


Materials aren't getting any cheaper either. Wood is going up and with oil at $100/barrel, that has to effect the price of tar which I assume would drive shingle cost up too.
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:27 PM   #15
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What kind of roof is this?


Some contracors have already reported significant price increases in asphalt based shingles and accessories.

We are getting about a 15% increase around April 1st, due to our primary supplier already having a surplus on hand to curtail the inevitable.

Ed

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