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Old 02-08-2012, 02:52 PM   #181
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Wavy roof! Need opinions/advice


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Originally Posted by Arkitexas View Post
I'm sure my age is much to blame. But after being burned by OSB on too many occasions over 41 years (I'm 65) it's not likely I will never be confident in OSB performance around moisture. With regard to all products, I've learned to be skeptical of any manufacturer's claims, to rely more on actual field performance, and to attach more weight to other professionals' opinions.

In my experience I have found OSB to have only one characteristic superior to plywood - flatness. This is an advantage in some areas of construction but shouldn't be a factor in decking and sheathing if the flatness is within rated tolerances.

In my opinion neither OSB nor plywood, having a EXPOSURE-1 rating, should be used where rain is possible. An EXTERIOR rating would be far wiser.

Rick

Exactly how have been "burned"?

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Old 02-08-2012, 10:02 PM   #182
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OSB is an engineered wood, it cannot tolerate much water. It takes longer for water to enter but a lot longer to dry. The backside has to be exposed to help dry it, not covered with foil (vapor impermeable). http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publication...d-and-plywood/
The foil stops the pressure drives/ventilation from the attic space below that could help dry the OSB if/when it gets wet (as it did).

Plywood and OSB act as “smart vapor retarders” to changes in relative humidity, BUT require “considerations--- “d”, and “e”--- one side open, not impermeable roofing on one side and impermeable foil on the other. Any water added at construction would wet the OSB and it couldn’t dry to the bottom side with the foil there and shortly covered with the roofing: http://usgbchouston.org/files/1479_J450.pdf

I'd be interested to learn if they sealed the edges of the OSB before the foil facing at the factory...

OSB should have an air space on one side to facilitate drying to that side, either under the building paper (two layers = twice as good) or housewrap with drainage ridges for a rainy climate. For very rainy areas, a “rain screen” (ventilated cladding) approach is best--- depends on location.
Photo #5 is similar to your foil facing/foam facing, on one side and builders paper on the other. It would have been better if they had installed two layers before the shingles- notice the “gap” with OSB, how much better it performs: http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...chterm=bsi+038 Did you read “Footnote” #5 and #6? The OSB dries through the edges and ends, it also wets through those, the reason manufacturers have painted them to seal against edge swell that plagued them earlier.

OSB does not “breathe” as well as plywood, or redistribute water as well as plywood. Plywood also dries much faster than OSB when it does get wet.
Look at the blue line on the charts for the drying time of having a double vapor barrier (asphalt shingles/foil) with plywood starting on the bottom of page #7: http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream...pdf?sequence=4

Did you read the drying rate of OSB in the lab samples on page #11? And see the chart in Fig. #13--- remember-- this is without any covering on either side. This is for a hot, humid climate, not yours, but it gives you an idea of what you’re up against. The framers may have left the OSB stock uncovered as said earlier, and it would wick the moisture from the air (acclimate) through the exposed edge grain before it even hit the roof. The sling of OSB would absorb the humidity at the edges to try to even out the big moisture/temperature difference: overcast day, rainy day with much humidity, OSB with 5-10%: chart on moisture content and size change: http://www.osb-info.org/Assets/file/...__Handling.pdf

http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el812.pdf

Be very careful of OSB that has aspen in its make-up; either on a roof or wall; http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pd...7_carll001.pdf

As you are in Zone 3 or 4A and I live in Zone 4C, these recommendations could also apply to you using the “vapor open” assembly, pp.4: http://www.cityofseattle.net/dclu/ne...dy_summary.pdf

As far as plywood over OSB besides the water issue: http://www.gp.com/build/PageViewer.a...elementid=6132

A quote: “Various risk factors (e.g., wintertime construction or high ambient
humidity or a projected long lead time before the building is closed
in) may lead the design team to: specify plywood instead of OSB;
specify a different cladding or roof covering assembly over the OSB;
or upgrade the specifications and details for installation of the
weather-resistive barrier or felt underlayment and related flashing
assemblies.
In addition, combining these risk factors might lead the builder to
more closely supervise and coordinate the subcontractors’ work or to
upgrade the weather protection systems for the exposed construction.” From: http://www.mastercodeprofessional.co...vs_Plywood.pdf


Gary
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:51 PM   #183
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Wavy roof! Need opinions/advice


It looks like the sheathing has failed! GBR has pointed out some great points. Things to never skimp on sheathing use CDX plywood five ply min. Sorry to see your problems
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:37 AM   #184
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You,re screwed,multiple problems. shingle pattern wrong,decking appears to be under nailed,challenged framer.Judging from the photo you may want to take a real close look at flashing details.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:52 AM   #185
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You,re screwed,multiple problems. shingle pattern wrong,decking appears to be under nailed,challenged framer.Judging from the photo you may want to take a real close look at flashing details.
It's unfair to assume the framer has anything to do with the sheathing issue. I see absolutely nothing in those photos that points a finger toward a "challenged framer". It's possible that the framer had nothing to do with the sheathing at all. In many parts of the country, there is a separate crew that does nothing but sheathing, leaving the framer to do nothing but framing.

It's also possible that the installation requirements were met and there is a failure of the product, regardless of who installed it.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:48 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by loneframer
It's unfair to assume the framer has anything to do with the sheathing issue. I see absolutely nothing in those photos that points a finger toward a "challenged framer". It's possible that the framer had nothing to do with the sheathing at all. In many parts of the country, there is a separate crew that does nothing but sheathing, leaving the framer to do nothing but framing.

It's also possible that the installation requirements were met and there is a failure of the product, regardless of who installed it.
Never heard of a sheeting crew. Must be a tract housing thing.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:52 AM   #187
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No it is typically a NJ thing.

As far as nailing pattern of the OSB it looks fine to me...
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:20 AM   #188
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Never heard of a sheeting crew. Must be a tract housing thing.
It probably started in tract housing, but I've seen it in custom beach homes as well. A good friend of mine framed in Las Vegas years ago. They would get into a development of several hundred homes on concrete slab. They had a very specialized system. One crew did nothing but plate and lay out, next crew would frame and brace, another crew set trusses and finally a crew would sheath the structure. Windows and doors were yet another crew.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:09 AM   #189
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I looked at the same picture you guys did.I don't know the circumstances of this install and neither do you. My observations were opinion not definitive.What I see is typical of the construction industry .Chest pounding & ego flaunting.Rather than trying to help this guy it's become a race of egos.If we knew everything we would'nt be in this business,at least I would'nt. Hey buddy TRY to find someone competant and realistic to crawl in and assess the damage.No sense and over complicating things any more than they have to be.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:09 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by roofscum View Post
I looked at the same picture you guys did.I don't know the circumstances of this install and neither do you. My observations were opinion not definitive.What I see is typical of the construction industry .Chest pounding & ego flaunting.Rather than trying to help this guy it's become a race of egos.If we knew everything we would'nt be in this business,at least I would'nt. Hey buddy TRY to find someone competant and realistic to crawl in and assess the damage.No sense and over complicating things any more than they have to be.
I don't think that a bunch of guys from different parts of the country offering up their opinions and experiences equates to a race of egos. The whole point of this site is to gather information and opinions of people who have had or seen similar experiences.

This is an unusual case which has inspired a lot of interest. Obviously, a physical inspection on site is the only way to sort this out completely. No reason why it can't be discussed here though.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:15 AM   #191
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This is an unusual case which has inspired a lot of interest. Obviously, a physical inspection on site is the only way to sort this out completely. No reason why it can't be discussed here though.
I agree completely. This thread has been INCREDIBLY valuable to me. I can't thank everyone enough for their input.

I have several additional roofing companies lined up for next week. Hoping to get to a definitive answer.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:09 AM   #192
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Wavy roof! Need opinions/advice


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On a related note: Years ago, on new homes with vinyl siding, one of the local cities made you put foil paper on the sheathing prior to siding. The foil was on one side of the paper, with the other side being brown. Everybody was installing the paper with the foil side out. They had a lot of problems with the siding expanding too much due to being heated up from the reflective foil.
Mike Hawkins

urban/suburban legend Mike,there are things that will distort vinyl siding this has never been proven to be one of them
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:16 AM   #193
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urban/suburban legend Mike,there are things that will distort vinyl siding this has never been proven to be one of them
Tom,
That was from a neighboring city who had an old timer for a building inspector. They had such crazy requirements there that a lot of builders wouldn't build there. I got into a pretty good argument with the inspector that day. I had the whole house just about done and he had me unzipping panels to check for the foil paper. When he saw it was foil side out, he wanted me to change it. That's when the argument started. Needless to say, I didn't change it. He said they had a lot of problems with the vinyl and blamed it on the foil. Thinking about it now, most of the problems were due to lumber shrinkage and the panel popping loose at the 2nd story belt line, which used to happen with aluminum even before the vinyl.
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this thread is.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:30 AM   #194
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the same thing was said about the black of felt paper holding too much heat,maybe dupont started these statements

but i have checked this out,no manufacturer of either vinyl siding or reflective foam mention this as a concern
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:12 PM   #195
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Wavy roof! Need opinions/advice


A few pictures taken from the other side of our house...
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Wavy roof! Need opinions/advice-roof1.jpg   Wavy roof! Need opinions/advice-roof2.jpg  

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