Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Roofing/Siding

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-22-2010, 10:51 AM   #46
Chicago, IL
 
Michael Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,037
Rewards Points: 0
Share |
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikfishron View Post
I disagree, I don’t think I’ve ever had a customer that didn’t want the root cause of the problem detected and resolved. What’s the point of a new roof or siding if it’s still going to leak. Although not always the case, more times than not it is a simple flashing or wb detail that is the problem and correcting it is usually a small additional charge compared the cost of the job.
If someone is aware that there is a problem, yes, they want it resolved - for example it's likely that SDC pulled that siding because there was evidence of water intrusion at the interior of the wall under the chase, not because his customer was concerned about the evidence of concentrated water flow down the chase at the exterior of the siding.

I'm speaking instead to the situation where:

1) A construction detail (in this case the penetration of a rake by an exterior chimney) predisposes the soffit and the wall below it to moisture damage, and the likelihood of damage depends in large part on factors (for example, the presence or absence of a water resistant barrier under the vinyl siding, and its correct or incorrect installation, the provisions for controlled drainage at the bottom of the chase, etc.) that cannot be fully determined by visual examination of the undisturbed exterior cladding.

-and-

2) There is no evidence that such damage is occurring (yet, at least).

In such situations it can be very difficult or impossible for a roofer called in (for example) to do a re-roof to get customers to pay for investigation of a problem that might be present, and/or to get them to pay for "industry best practice" instead of "locally accepted practice" on the strength of the roofer's opinion that better (and more expensive) workmanship might prevent problems down the road - this is just a fact of life, and its one reason we see so many poor roofing jobs and the damage that results.

Please note that I'm on the side of the angles in this - I've referred hundreds of thousands of dollars in business to competent contractors and a major part of my job is to educate my clients about the enormous difference between vendors: to help them spec work so that they can evaluate what's being proposed, to help educate vendors about current industry best practice, to perform progress inspections to insure that work is being done to the agreed standards, and then to follow up to determine what works best (and worse) over time.

So if you are a contractor trying to convince a potential customer to pay for quality work, I'm your best friend, there to help the customer understand why the work should be done properly.

However, what I provide is an opinion.

I hope it's an informed opinion, and one that I can defend based on documented industry best practice - but as everyone who performs or evaluates such work knows both industry sources and highly competent vendors sometimes have very different opinions about what works best (or, at all), and in some cases the industry consensus of opinion changes over time.

And that's one reason I hang out in places like this (as well as vendor oriented boards): do-it-yourselves come here with a real-world problems, and people propose real-world solutions - some better, some worse, some I've seen, and some that are new to me.

It's interesting and useful largely because they sometimes challenge opinions I already have.

In this case, it seems "obvious" to me based on experience that if you have the choice of directing water above a chimney back onto the roof rather than over the rake, you should keep concentrated water flows off the soffit and walls below on general principle.

An experienced roofer disagrees.

I want to know why - this is a case of "please convince me me I'm wrong. Because if so, I've learned something useful..."

__________________
Home Inspections, Infrared (Thermal Imaging) Leak Identification and Inspection Services, Roof, Attic, Building, Basement and Foundation Moisture Intrusion and Water Leak Inspections, Troubled Building Consultations - Serving Chicago and Suburbs http://paragoninspects.com/
Michael Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Michael Thomas For This Useful Post:
Tom Struble (11-22-2010)
Old 11-22-2010, 10:56 AM   #47
Chicago, IL
 
Michael Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,037
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW View Post
Or we could just keep our mouths shut and let people get what they pay for. That would be better for all of us, right?
See the post above.
__________________
Home Inspections, Infrared (Thermal Imaging) Leak Identification and Inspection Services, Roof, Attic, Building, Basement and Foundation Moisture Intrusion and Water Leak Inspections, Troubled Building Consultations - Serving Chicago and Suburbs http://paragoninspects.com/
Michael Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2010, 07:59 PM   #48
Residential Roofer
 
Slyfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Struthers, Ohio
Posts: 803
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


LOL, this thread has gone crazy, no wonder the OP hasn't commented in awhile.

The fix for both those chimney leak situations, which are detectable upon inspection with out tearing anything apart, is not worthy such a long drawn out discussion.
As far as diverting water off a rake from behind a 26" wide chimney pan,
your talking about such a minor amount of water it is absolutely harmless, both mechanically and aesthetically.
__________________
God Family Country Work Play
Facebook <> Twitter
Slyfox Exteriors Co.
Slyfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2010, 08:24 PM   #49
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 84
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyfox View Post
LOL, this thread has gone crazy, no wonder the OP hasn't commented in awhile.
Actually it's still completely on topic. Last sentence from the original post: "How can you direct water so it doesn't hit the chimney side wall?"

Good question.

Quote:
The fix for both those chimney leak situations, which are detectable upon inspection with out tearing anything apart, is not worthy such a long drawn out discussion.
IIRC here was only one chimney leak. The other was siding. The siding might not have leaked if excess water hadn't been coming down the wall (lack of gutters), but it begs the question why ever direct roof runoff down a wall if given a choice.

Quote:
As far as diverting water off a rake from behind a 26" wide chimney pan,
your talking about such a minor amount of water it is absolutely harmless, both mechanically and aesthetically.
Granted, 26" doesn't sound like a lot. Code here however says a 30" + chimney requires a cricket.
jmiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2010, 08:44 PM   #50
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 84
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Slyfox, from one contractor to another:

I would trust my top corner chimney flashing to handle 10x the water/ice/snow that it will ever see, but I have no idea how well the siding is waterproofed. If you make the pan pitch towards the rake you just bought the warranty on a wall of siding IMO. Why do that if you trust your chimney flashing?
jmiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2010, 11:02 PM   #51
Member
 
Tom Struble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: west milford n.j.
Posts: 2,785
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyfox View Post
LOL, this thread has gone crazy, no wonder the OP hasn't commented in awhile.

The fix for both those chimney leak situations, which are detectable upon inspection with out tearing anything apart, is not worthy such a long drawn out discussion.
As far as diverting water off a rake from behind a 26" wide chimney pan,
your talking about such a minor amount of water it is absolutely harmless, both mechanically and aesthetically.


i'm having fun
Tom Struble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2010, 06:55 AM   #52
Residential Roofer
 
Slyfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Struthers, Ohio
Posts: 803
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiller View Post
Actually it's still completely on topic. Last sentence from the original post: "How can you direct water so it doesn't hit the chimney side wall?"

Good question.

His concerns about the water heating the wall is due to the dirty run off,
meaning, when water 'due to a leak' is running off like that it creates unsightly marks/streaking, but with a clean run off that will not happen.
Thus his only real concern is to not have it leaking behind/into the siding.


IIRC here was only one chimney leak. The other was siding. The siding might not have leaked if excess water hadn't been coming down the wall (lack of gutters), but it begs the question why ever direct roof runoff down a wall if given a choice.

First photo 'op' showed the top end of a chimney on the rake.
Second set of photos showed a chimney at the eave.
The lack of gutter has nothing to with it, I have roofed hundreds of homes and small businesses in which gutters were never installed.


Granted, 26" doesn't sound like a lot. Code here however says a 30" + chimney requires a cricket.
It's the same here, but the 26" was just a number that pops up on those styles regularly, I doubt that one is even that wide.

You guys are over thinking the slope I'm putting toward the rake.
The slope is extremely minor that it's not going to create a valley offect.
No matter what you do with the pan in that situation your going to have water running off that rake, the only way you can stop that is to not install a pan and go with a half cricket or something of that nature.
__________________
God Family Country Work Play
Facebook <> Twitter
Slyfox Exteriors Co.
Slyfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2010, 06:57 AM   #53
Residential Roofer
 
Slyfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Struthers, Ohio
Posts: 803
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiller View Post
Actually it's still completely on topic. Last sentence from the original post: "How can you direct water so it doesn't hit the chimney side wall?"

Good question.

His concerns about the water hitting the wall is due to the dirty run off,
meaning, when water 'due to a leak' is running off like that creates unsightly marks/streaking, but with a clean run off that will not happen.
Thus his only real concern is to not have it leaking behind/into the siding.



IIRC here was only one chimney leak. The other was siding. The siding might not have leaked if excess water hadn't been coming down the wall (lack of gutters), but it begs the question why ever direct roof runoff down a wall if given a choice.

First photo 'op' showed the top end of a chimney on the rake.
Second set of photos showed a chimney at the eave.
The lack of gutter has nothing to with it, I have roofed hundreds of homes and small businesses in which gutters were never installed.



Granted, 26" doesn't sound like a lot. Code here however says a 30" + chimney requires a cricket.
It's the same here, but the 26" was just a number that pops up on those styles regularly, I doubt that one is even that wide.

You guys are over thinking the slope I'm putting toward the rake.
The slope is extremely minor that it's not going to create a valley offect.
No matter what you do with the pan in that situation your going to have water running off that rake, the only way you can stop that is to not install a pan and go with a half cricket or something of that nature.
__________________
God Family Country Work Play
Facebook <> Twitter
Slyfox Exteriors Co.
Slyfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2010, 06:59 AM   #54
Residential Roofer
 
Slyfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Struthers, Ohio
Posts: 803
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Sorry for the double post, not sure if it's my connection or DIY's but all I did was edited my post with color to show my response.
__________________
God Family Country Work Play
Facebook <> Twitter
Slyfox Exteriors Co.
Slyfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2010, 07:44 AM   #55
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 84
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyfox View Post
It's the same here, but the 26" was just a number that pops up on those styles regularly, I doubt that one is even that wide.

You guys are over thinking the slope I'm putting toward the rake.
The slope is extremely minor that it's not going to create a valley offect.
No matter what you do with the pan in that situation your going to have water running off that rake, the only way you can stop that is to not install a pan and go with a half cricket or something of that nature.
I agree, a slight slope isn't going to keep all water from going to the rake edge anyway.

One other option mentioned earlier was an L flashing tucked under the shingles two or three courses above the chimney that REALLY pushes water inward enough to keep it off the rake (and can extend past the inside chimney corner as well if it's of unknown quality).

The above detail is even listed in the Velux install manual for a custom flashed horizontally installed skylight, so it's not really as hackish as it sounds. I never cared for them myself, unless they were part of the gutter system, and not sure if it would satisfy code officials as a cricket, but it would work for the OP.
Attached Thumbnails
Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB-velux-install.jpg  
jmiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2010, 08:23 AM   #56
Chicago, IL
 
Michael Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,037
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Vinyl sided chimney on side of house - rotting OSB


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyfox View Post
No matter what you do with the pan in that situation your going to have water running off that rake, the only way you can stop that is to not install a pan and go with a half cricket or something of that nature.
And that's - ideally - what I think should be there.

__________________
Home Inspections, Infrared (Thermal Imaging) Leak Identification and Inspection Services, Roof, Attic, Building, Basement and Foundation Moisture Intrusion and Water Leak Inspections, Troubled Building Consultations - Serving Chicago and Suburbs http://paragoninspects.com/
Michael Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Michael Thomas For This Useful Post:
Tom Struble (11-23-2010)
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
help with cooling one side of my house. sjthompson HVAC 6 08-23-2010 04:45 PM
Vinyl Siding just blew off the side..... Scott_K Building & Construction 5 01-17-2006 10:17 AM
Siding: Aluminum vs. Vinyl Grumpy Remodeling 1 03-19-2005 12:55 PM
Siding: Aluminum vs. Vinyl Grumpy Remodeling 0 04-18-2004 03:35 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.