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Old 11-07-2007, 07:28 AM   #16
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Vented Drip Edge?


I am going to see the GAF rep tommorow and will bring it up,but when you think about it if the ice and water shield is not adheared to the deck then you are not putting it down the way it is intended to work. Ice could back up right under it by the way it looks to me. I wonder what Grace would say if you show them this detail.

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Old 11-07-2007, 10:42 AM   #17
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Vented Drip Edge?


Firstly, the end plugs are for the last pieces on the left and right sides, where the interior of the vent is exposed. Unless they have modified there design since 2003, which is the last time I installed the Vented Drip Edge product from Air Vent.

If the contractor wrote down in the contract that the roof will be installed per the manufacturers warranty, and it fails the ventilation criteria, then they may be on the hook for the remediation necesary.

Meet with the rep in person, but do not come off as a complaining whining home owner. Just explain your concern that the ventilation meets the criteria necessary for the full warranty, and get it in writing from the rep.

Jim,

I will e-mail both DCI Products and Grace, W.R. Meadows to get a straight answer.

I suspect, that since Ice damming occurs on top of the shingles, they should not have a problem with it, but I will follow through with the answer from the horses mouth, as I hope you do to.

Ed
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:46 AM   #18
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Vented Drip Edge?


Mike,

Cute kids!

Nice color scheme to the house with the shutters and the shingle color choice. Nice job with the ridge vent from end to end. It looks very uniform.

The front porch roof does not need the ventilation as you presumed.

Ed
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:20 AM   #19
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Vented Drip Edge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
Mike,

Cute kids!

Nice color scheme to the house with the shutters and the shingle color choice. Nice job with the ridge vent from end to end. It looks very uniform.

The front porch roof does not need the ventilation as you presumed.

Ed

Thanks. They're loaners. (My friend's who was dropping the 50 foot tree)

Thanks again for the shutters, the original one's were sand colored.

The ridge vent was done by the roofer. Other than the ventilation issue, the did an amazing job. They even reflashed the chimney. Like I said, I'm not really blaming the roofer, more the estimator. The roofer can only do what's on the contract. When I get the contract up, we can determine if it was in the contract.

As for the Airvent, i don't think they have modified the design. But it does not mention endplugs.

After I get the pictures up, and I see your comments, I'll pursue the factory rep. I don't even have contact information for them yet. (Althought I'd imagine it'd be on GAF's website.)

I can't thank you gentlemen enough for the advice your giving.
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:06 PM   #20
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Vented Drip Edge?


I assumed that you had purchased the additional Golden Pledge Warranty, which requires GAF to come out to do an inspection.

If the contractor is not one of the paid up certified contractors and did not give you the additional warranty, I doubt you will have any success getting a rep to come out to look at your home.

They have too many roofing installations being done to provide that additional service for customers who did not pay extra for it.

I might be wrong, but unless either the contractor or their material supplier requests the inspection, you may not get much in terms of satisfaction expecting an on site visit and inspection.

Ed
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:39 PM   #21
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Vented Drip Edge?


Interesting. Very Interesting..

I have a "Peace of Mind" Warranty, which is administered by GAF, but issued by the company that installed the roof.

Halfway down the paper, it says "A GAF quality Assurance Rep will be performing a problem prevention Review on your Weather Stopper Integrated Roofing System Installation"

On the back of the warrenty, in the fine print...

Item (2)
If during the warranty term for misapplication any part of your GAFMC Weather Stopper Roof System or covered flashings is found to have application errors, GAFMC will arrange to have your roof repaired, or recovered, or provide you with replacement products and reimburse you the full reasonable cost of labor...etc..


So.. Based on your last comment.

1. I do not want to futz with the roof myself, since this will VOID my warranty.

2. I should contact the 800 number on my warranty, and pursue this with the warranty company. (I do not believe I have had my follow up inspection yet, although I've had a lot going on, and they may have called and I told them to do it. The notate in many places I do not need to be present when they inspect)

anyways, I promised pictures closer, so here they are.

Pictures

It the same gallery as before, just tacked onto the end. Just keep pushing the right arrow button to see the other 6 pictures.

To answer a previous question. The Fascia board is aluminum wrapped, and the gutter is much too high.

I can't scan the contract, damn scanner is missing a piece.

It has a section marked Ventilation. A subsection is marked Intake. This subsection has two entries.
Entry 1 is Soffit Vent, Entry 2 is Vented Drip Edge.
Soffit Vent has a #1 beside it. It has Color White written in the color section. Under it is has a note that says:
CAF speak to P.M. with a arrow pointing to white.
I do not know what CAF means. (It might be something else as well, the writing is small and the last letter is indistinct, it might be CAE)

Last edited by mpking; 11-07-2007 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:28 PM   #22
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Vented Drip Edge?


Request nicely, from the contractor that you would like to meet with the owner or the customer service guy they send out to discuss your concerns about the non-applied intake ventilation and to find out what they wrote down on your contract if you are not clear about it.

Secondly, contact the 800 number and find out who the GAF rep is that does the inspections in your area and request his contact phone numbers and e-mail address and then request a specific appointment time so that you can be there to ask him your questions.

When you meet with the rep, have him put in writing if the current ventilation meets the required amount for your home.

It is possible, technically, that you may have the grand total amount required, just from the ridge ventilation product installed. If it is 18 square inches per foot, then multiply that by the entire length of your ridge length. This will give you the total NFVA provided for by the ridge venting alone.

Even without one or the other aspect of the entire balanced ventilation, you still may have technically achieved the proper amount of TOTAL NFVA, even though it is not a balanced system split between the intake and exhaust ventilation.

To calculate the most extreme amount required by any code or any shingle manufacturer, you take the entire attic floor length x the attic floor width and arrive at a number.

Example:
50 foot long, (from left to right), x 30 foot wide, (from front to rear), = 1,500 total attic floor square footage.

The extreme calculation divides that number by 150.

So 1,500 divided by 150 = 10 square feet required, or convert that to square inches then it would = 10 x 144 = 1,440 square inches.

In the example dimensions I used, you would have 50 feet of ridge x 18 square inches per foot = 900 square inches (Providing that the ridge vent product used has a rated NFVA of 18 sq in per lineal foot)

Convert 900 square inches into square feet: A square foot is 12" x 12" = 144 square inches.

So, divide 900 by 144 = 6.25 square feet

In this example, you would be 3.75 square feet,or 3.75 x 144 = 540 square inches short of meeting this benchmark criteria.

Another method of doing these calculations, if other certain criteria are met, and one would be a "Balanced" intake to exhaust ventilation scenario and the other would be a 100 % vapor barrier installed under the warm side of the attic floor insulation, would then be to divide the amounts by 300 instead of 150. Then the total amount of ventilation required would be cut in half.

Regardless of any of these calculations, the important issue is if you meet the requirements from the manufacturer to qualify for their special warranty that you were contractually promised.

Once again, I repeat, get it in writing from the rep and ensure that the company will stand behind it down the road, in the event that they want to disclaim any liability because the roof and attic ventilation was not installed the more optimum way, which would have been to be completely balanced, 50/50 or to slightly favor the intake ventilation in a ratio of 60/40, with the 60 % being the intake and the 40 % being the exhaust.

Ed

edit:
Also, from your new photos, it looks as if the Gutter Apron Sheet Metal Drip Edge Flashing does not extentd ito your gutter, so that is probably why someone applied that grey caulking at the top edge of the gutter. The drip edge installation looks a little sloppy, but it is concealed from fiew by the gutter placement.
Ed

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 11-07-2007 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 11-08-2007, 06:23 AM   #23
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Vented Drip Edge?


Just for reference my calculations are below:

40' x 22' = 880 total attic floor square footage.
880 / 150 (Which is the number GAF mentions on the warranty) = 5.866667
5.86667 x 144 = 844.6

40' x 18 = 720

844.6 - 720 is a shortage of 124.8.

But wouldn't it be worse in real life, since the ridge vent is only about 38' feet long? Making that second number 684, and the shortage 160.8

The other factor at play here is I still have gable vents. I imagine that those would put me over the ventilation value. (They're roughly 18x12) event though they do not function as intake vents very well.

During the summer, I did have a thermometer up in the attic (I was working up there doing wiring, and didn't want to get heat stroke). It was about 125 degrees up there. (Ambient outside temperature was about 80-85)

Just to clarify your last statement.

I should contact the roofer first, and then GAF if the roofer doesn't help. Or both at the same time.

Mike
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:54 AM   #24
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Vented Drip Edge?


I always recommend trying to go to the first party you are dealing with and trying to remedy the situation fairly for both parties.

If they should have contractually done some additional work and refuse to accomodate the needs in the particular situation, then go to the next source, but have a reasonable time limit for the initial party to decide what they are willing to do before you back them into a corner and before you step over their heads.

Now, regarding the GAF rep, I still am unlear, but it seems as if your contractor is one of their certified contractors and offered you the extended warranty provisions, so they should be obliged to do the proper work.

The 18 square inches of NFVA is what most good ridge ventilation products provide, but some produce lesser NFVA ratings, so you need to know exactly which product they installed for that math to be correct.

Use the 38 feet length if that is what you truly have installed.

If you do add soffit intake ventilation, then the gable vents should be closed off to prevent short-circuiting the ventilation flowage.

Remember, if the contractor is one of their certified companies, they have paid a fee to GAF to "Buy" that honorarium in addition to attending some CARE classes. The GAF rep probably does alot of business volume with the contractor, so the sword is double edged. He may try aggressively to straighten out the matter or he may feel an obligation to the potential future revenue that the certified contractor can generate for them.

Ed

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 11-08-2007 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 11-12-2007, 12:28 PM   #25
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Vented Drip Edge?


I've been doing more investigating.

I've found that I am able to get traditional 2" round soffit vent into the soffit. It's rough, since I have to precision drill the hole. (The soffit is 2.75" wide) and time consuming since the soffit has to be angled to get under the fascia wrapping. My time is cheap to myself however.

Then I have to go into the attic, and drill holes thru a "Mystery Board". The "Mystery Board" appears to be a 1x8.

I'm not going to cause problems by drilling this?

Also, I've been advised to put one vent in-between each joist.

Will this effectively end my ventilation problems?

I've attached some diagrams (excuse the spelling of fascia, I'm not going to remake the images for a mispelling)



The Mystery Board is nailed to the ends of the Rafters/Joists. It runs the length of the house, I just wanted to expose the joists in my little pictures.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:50 PM   #26
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Vented Drip Edge?


Good idea, but not enough ventilation. To equal, or balance the amount of exhaust ventilation you have from your ridge vent, you would have to divide the 720 by the size's NFVA listed to determine how many you would need. The copy/paste did not format correctly, so;

Here is the specific link to the categaories and NFVA's of the circular mini vents. http://www.lomanco.com/ProductPAGES/CirkVents.html

This NFVA chart is from www.Lomanco.com in their products guide for intake ventilation.

Ed

Model Number
General Specifications
Overall Size (in)
Net Free Area (in2)
Hole Size (in)
Number Per Inner Carton
Number Per Master Carton
Weight Per Carton (lbs)
L-38
Screen & Louvers
3
1.63
2-1/2
6
72
2- 3/4
C-25
Screen only
3
2.34
2-1/2
6
72
2 -1/4
P-18
Screen & Louvers
1
0.20
3/4
6
72
3/4
D-16
Louver only
1
0.44
3/4
6
72
1/2
CV-4
Screen & Louvers
4-1/2
3.00
4
—-
36
2 -3/4
CV-3
Screen & Louvers
3-1/2
2.57
3
6
72
3- 1/2
CV-2
Screen & Louvers
2-1/4
1.50
2
6
72
2
CV-1
Screen & Louvers
1-1/4
0.23
1
6
72
3/4

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 11-12-2007 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:56 PM   #27
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Vented Drip Edge?


umm... Maybe my math is wrong.... but

720 / 1.5 = 480. So I would need to put 480 in the roof.

So in other words, I would neded 240 on each side.... That's 45' if I line them side by side. Um I only have a 40 foot roof line..

Other words I'm still screwed. (Based on the CV-2)
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:02 PM   #28
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Vented Drip Edge?


(I'm really tired, just ranting)

So I can't do a vented drip edge unless I get the roofer to do it. Or risk destroying the warranty.

The 2inch round soffit vents seem to be ineffective at best. (I'm 1/4 done, and got about 12 hours more work to finish it, told you they were a *************** to install)

If I don't fix the ventilation, I risk destroying the said same warranty.

Arrrrr
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:11 PM   #29
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Just looked up the specs on the Vented Drip edge. Looks like I'm in a hole they're too.

According to the specs, I'd need 60 feet of Vented Drip edge to balance the ridgevent.

With the 32 feet I got (not sure where I got 32 from, I think it's from the amount deducted from the endplugs) I'll get 576 sq inches if I do both sides.

Which is better than the 90 sq inches If I continue with my current plan of 1 vent every 16 inches on center.
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:38 PM   #30
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Vented Drip Edge?


Check out the continuous soffit strip vent or the under eave vents, such as these at this Air Vent Corp. link.

http://www.airvent.com/professional/...s/intake.shtml

Ed


Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 11-13-2007 at 08:25 AM.
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