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Old 04-05-2014, 12:53 AM   #1
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


I'm a new poster to DIY and have an issue with a 38 year old S tile roof in South Florida. My valley has been leaking for a while and I finally got the courage to try to repair it. After reading quite a bit I have decided to replace about 1 ft of plywood from the seam to be sure I get all the rotted wood out. I will then lay down Grace Ice and Water Shield (even though we get no ice here). On top of the Ice and Water I will have 20 “ aluminum flashing cut in segments of about 8 ft and overlapped by 1 Ft. The segments will be nailed through only on top with two nails, On the side, I will drive nails about 14” apart with the shanks on the edge of the flashing but not nailed through so flashing will be able to expand and be held down only by the heads of the nails.

My problem starts here: When the roof was originally laid, someone cut corners to save a few hundred tiles, and left holes where water can seep through. (see picture) I originally thought this was due to tile movement through the years, but now I am convinced it was a shady trick to save tiles, and some crooked inspector signed off on it. Because water will seep through, and I have no money for a complete re-roof, I foresee a problem at the valley when I finish the tiles at the valley edge by mortaring them. The water that seeps in through the tile gaps will have nowhere to go and will pool on the other side of the mortar and create the next problem.

The solution that I see is to try an experiment with pieces of aluminum or copper tubing mortared into each tile section, and doglegging into the center of the valley. (see picture 2) This way the seeping water has a way to drain from behind the mortar, but rushing valley rain water should not have a chance to flow back up through the tubes. Worst case, if the experiment is a failure, I can simply cut the tubes flush at the mortar edge, and cement the holes.

If tubing option unworkable, then my only option is to put tile foam on every single gap, and then mortar over the foam for a more long lasting result, This will be tedious work and probably will not last very long before cracks develop.

Appreciate any feedback. Most backyard roofers that I have shown this to, have thumbed down the tubing idea, but their solution is simply to re-roof, which I cannot afford. Outside of the leaking valley, the roof is actually trouble free.

Many thanks in advance for your feedback.
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Valley repair on S tile roof.-tile-gaps.jpg   Valley repair on S tile roof.-copper-tubing-drainage.jpg  

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Old 04-05-2014, 10:26 PM   #2
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Additional concern to my previous post- Once I put heavy concrete S tiles and mortar on my valley metal flashing it won't be able to move(expand) anyway, so does it really buy me anything not to nail it through?

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Old 04-06-2014, 08:44 AM   #3
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


If the entire roof is laid like that pic, I do not see how addressing the valley is going to solve anything. It looks like the water is running under the roof tiles and not on top of the roof tiles. I think the tubing idea is trouble, more likely to create a damn and still leak.

A pic of the valley from further back would help.

Last edited by AndyWRS; 04-06-2014 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:30 PM   #4
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Thank you Erniesgutters and AndyWRS for your kind replies. I am still no closer to figuring out whether to nail in the metal flashing. I have 6 books on roofing, and 4 say to nail through and two say to use cleats or nail on the edge as I originally thought to do. Given that it is obvious that the valley metal cannot move under the weight of the concrete tile and mortar, I will probably nail through on the edges every 14 inches, and will cover over the nails with 8" strips of Ice & Water. I'll leave some of the edge of the aluminum flashing uncovered by the I&W to give any moisture between the aluminum and the membrane a chance to vapor out .

Unless I hear a great argument to the contrary, I will still try the drain tubes idea. I know that a small amount of water must be seeping in through the tile gaps, and I have to find a way to drain that from behind the mortar wall. I favor the tube because the more length, the less likely that water can back up through it, but a compromise may be small channels in the bottom of the mortar, created diagonal to the downward water flow in the valley. This would create the same solution, without the risk of dams, but the shorter length would make it that more likely that water might back into it'.

To address the tile gaps again, I am now sure they were there when this roof was one day old, and it lasted over 35 years before it started to leak in the valley. I believe that if I concentrate on making the valley as waterproof as I can make it, I will get another 10 years from this roof, or until the next hurricane blows it off, which will be the only way I will be able to afford a real re-roof. Sucks, but I'll deal with it.
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Valley repair on S tile roof.-valley-flash-nailed-i-w-strips.jpg  
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:45 PM   #5
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


I think the mortar and tubing is not going to work. I also think it is not addressing the problem. The problem is the water entering at the stretched exposure on each course. I do think you could add alum tin shingles to cover up the exposed areas. But you are going to need to do every tile and every course of tile on both roof sections that drain to the problem valley.

The concern would be that your underlayment is shot, especially at the stretched exposure if the paper is visible. That exposed felt paper would get destroyed by the sun in a year or two. The pic sure looks like it is exposed, but the resolution is poor and I cant see for sure. Also, along with the bad underlayment your probably going to have substantial wood damage.

Additional pics from further back would help, also a confirmation if the underlayment is actually visible in the stretched exposure at the corner.

Last edited by AndyWRS; 04-06-2014 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:29 AM   #6
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


If you bought some brown or black Benjamine/Obdyke aluminum, cut it into 8" tall strips by however wide they need to be to match the cross section fo the tiles to use as bibs, you could go around the whole roof and bib every course in a few hours and correct all those short courses.
Cleat the valley into place, don't nail it. It can and will wrinkle, then oil-can and then split 9 times out of ten.
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:53 PM   #7
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


AndyWRS said:
“I do think you could add alum tin shingles to cover up the exposed areas. “

“ The concern would be that your underlayment is shot, especially at the stretched exposure if the paper is visible. That exposed felt paper would get destroyed by the sun in a year or two. The pic sure looks like it is exposed”

Andy, if there is any sun exposure, it is only for a brief second...this is not a concern, my real concern is water seepage. I kind of like the idea of "alum tiin shingles". By the way, you said something about my idea of the mortar, and it confused me, as there is no other way that I know of to do a valley on S tile. If I am missing something here, Please give me a shout.

Tinner666 said:
“ If you bought some brown or black Benjamine/Obdyke aluminum, cut it into 8" tall strips by however wide they need to be to match the cross section fo the tiles to use as bibs, you could go around the whole roof and bib every course in a few hours and correct all those short courses.* “

Funny you should bring this up. Last night I was discussing this with my wife and I was thinking about putting on Mylar cut into 3 " strips to create a cover for the gaps, and immediately backed out because Mylar would not stand up to UV. My wife threw out " why don't you use duct tape?" (she is a recent adherent to the "duct tape will fix anything cult"). I said tape will get killed by UV, but then it hit me that I have Nashua aluminum foil tape for A/C ductwork. I measured valley flashing aluminum material and it is from .016" to .023" . The foil tape I have is .0035" and feels almost thick enough to last, however, I found some Nashua tape that is either .011" or .008" . a 150ft roll of .008 can be had for $16, and that may be enough to eliminate seepage. by the way, no one down here so far seems to know about Benjamine/Obdyke aluminum, so maybe it is not in favor here.

I am attaching some pictures of my other valley which is beginning to have some problems. As you can see, someone did a fix some time ago with a piece of roll roofing material. If that is all I have for flashing, that is my problem right there.

Many thanks for all your inputs. I need to get up there and start opening up the tiles to see what the reality is under there.
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Valley repair on S tile roof.-valley-material.jpg   Valley repair on S tile roof.-valley-front.jpg   Valley repair on S tile roof.-valley-complete.jpg  
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Old 04-07-2014, 04:03 PM   #8
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


That is one odd looking valley to me, not what I see in CA.

I never see the valley pc's mortared in like that and they didn't use a W valley.

Your response to my exposure comment tells me I am not explaining it properly. I will try to find a pic to explain what I think I see in your first pic.
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Old 04-07-2014, 04:17 PM   #9
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Berger makes good aluminum flashing. Check with roofing supply houses.
You have your work cut out for you.
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Old 04-07-2014, 05:00 PM   #10
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Not your roof type, but I modified the tile to show the corner that concerns me.
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Valley repair on S tile roof.-exposed-corner-covered-alum-flashing_1.jpg   Valley repair on S tile roof.-exposed-underlayment_1.jpg  
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:05 PM   #11
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyWRS View Post
Not your roof type, but I modified the tile to show the corner that concerns me.
Thanks for the sketch Andy. My googlefu wasn't working and I don't think my explanation was adequate. That's what I was was trying to say, but I feel the headlap all the way across may also be suspect, so I suggested pieces that went the full width of the tile.

Hopefully your graphic and this explanation will cover the details. Headlap on those tile shouldn't be less that 3", and 4" would be nice, so I said 8" tall.
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:22 PM   #12
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Best I could do with limited time, my SU skills are ok but I am slow.

Its a bit surprising to see an install like that, who the hell does that. I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me...I was thinking surely they didn't. I guess they did if your seeing it too.

BTW that roof is dirty dirty dirty!
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:53 PM   #13
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Quote:
As you can see, someone did a fix some time ago with a piece of roll roofing material. If that is all I have for flashing, that is my problem right there.


I just noticed this in your post. You need to confirm if there is any metal under that rolled roofing. I suspect there is, the rolled roofing was installed to try and fix the valley leak issue...but the valley is not the problem. The problem you have is the stretched exposure of every roofing tile course (at least on the section in the pic in the OP). However, given the way the tiles are installed, (completely incorrect exposure) I actually would not be surprised if the valley was removed and it is just rolled roofing.

**If you discover there is not metal valley under the rolled roofing, you have much more complicated problem.

1. you still need to add the alum flashing as Tinner mentioned.
2. you will have to remove the valley tiles and install a proper valley metal as Tinner mentioned.

You can not solve this leak by only doing 1 or 2, you have to do 1 & 2 if you discover no metal valley under the rolled roofing.

Last edited by AndyWRS; 04-07-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:46 PM   #14
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Andy, many thanks for all your comments..You say that you do not see the valleys mortared in, and I see a lot of those down here. What do you guys do in California? just leave the tile edges open? If so, the difference may be that we do get hurricanes, and open edges are more likely to get ripped up by the wind. Then again, the edge (first row) tiles around the house do have open edges except for the bird stops. *** Can you send a pic of the typical california S tile valley edge finish? ***

W valley flashing.- Don't see much of that around here, but I can definitely understand the benefits of it. I may try to get some and return the material I have

BTW, your picture of the gapped tiles is exactly the, or one of the problems I have. I will attempt to use 8 mil aluminum foil tape and see if that works. If it does, then I may either double up on it for 16 mil aluminum, or put in 16 to 19 mil roll material for more durability .

I am attaching more close-up pics of the gaps. These are some of the ones where the tile nail holes are visible, but even in these cases, I probably only get some seepage when we get driving rain which usually comes in from the West. unfortunately in the biggest half of the roof feeding the valley, the gaps face...West ! To your issue of the sun exposure, that is not the case, I doubt there is ever any sun exposure at all because the roof section faces North.

Tinner666, your comments and ideas are on the mark and very appreciated. Please dumb down some of the more technical terms for me, you have a rookie Harry Homeowner on this side
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Valley repair on S tile roof.-tile-nail-noles-2.jpg   Valley repair on S tile roof.-strip-3-mil-aluminum-tape..jpg   Valley repair on S tile roof.-tile-gap-showing-nail-hole.jpg  
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Old 04-08-2014, 03:26 PM   #15
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Valley repair on S tile roof.


Sorry for asking such a dumb question. In all the books that I have looked at, they talk about repairing a valley as "stripping it down to the bare wood, replacing the rotted wood, then laying down a membrane such as I&W and then the Valley metal, but what about the intersection between the 36 inch membrane and the 30# or 90# underlayment on the rest of the roof. Do I tuck the I&W edges under the underlayment, or do I go over it with the I&W.

This is probably too "elementary school" for the books to go into in detail, but it seems to me there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. I appreciate any feedback here.

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