Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Roofing/Siding

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-18-2008, 02:04 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Default

TPO vs other membrane


We have just purchased a small old townhouse (rowhouse) in the DC area. The 16x26 tar and gravel roof is leaking and must be replaced. I suspect the decking will need to be replaced as well as nothing has been done to this property in over 45 years - a little old lady lived in it. It appears to have a small crawl space for ventilation but I will know more upon demolition of the interior walls and ceilings.

I am considering TPO for a number of reasons including its "green" appeal on resale and ease of installation. Already a couple of roofers have given me estimates close to $10,000 and that does not include tear off and replacement of the decking. IMHO they think the building boom is still going on. That said I would like to do the install if possible but can't find a source to purchase the products or equipment. I would even be willing to take a manufacturer's certification course. The cost to take the course, supplies and equipment would still be much less than what they want to charge.

Any suggestions?

I apologize for the poor quality cell phone camera image.



Last edited by gapfiller; 01-18-2008 at 02:40 PM.
gapfiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 05:43 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,384
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Do you have a roofing contracting license and own a roofing company?

No, I didn't think so. The manufacturers only sell to distributers, who typically only sell to contractors.

To become a certified installer, you would have to be an established contractor. God forbid if they opened up the can of worms of allowing anyone with no previous roofing experience install their systems. How would that put their products name in good standing?

Also, do you own a $ 6,500.00 automatic Leister robotic walking welder and also the $ 500.00 hand held welding guns for the smaller detail work? What about the screw guns, which cost around $ 100.00 and up for each one?

How much insulation was getting included in the quote?

Were they accounting for the loose gravel removal?

What about the perimeter wall coping materials? Are they going to be removed and replaced?

Do you own a masonry roto-hammer drill and diamond tipped drill bits to drill into the masonry wall for the fasteners to be secured? A good Bosch costs over $ 200.00 itself.

Is there electricity available real close to the roof surface so you do not have to run extension cords several stories down and loose current through the thinner guage cords?

Do you own several groups of 50 foot and 100 foot 12 guage or 10 guage extension cords to minimize the current loss?

Is there a 220 volt outlet available with the appropriate receptacle for the robotic welder?

If not, then you will have to buy or rent a 6,500 watt generator. The Honda model goes for around $ 2,000.00 give or take a couple of hundred dollars.

What is the roof access like? Will materials be easily deliverable, or will they have to be craned up to the roof surface?

Do you have perimeter safety OSHA approved guard rails to set up along the outside edges of the building? What were you planning to do to meet the OSHA mandated requirements for fall arrest safety?

If there is no large opening for roof access, do you have either 32 foot or 40 foot ladders to get on the roof?

Contractors also have to pay out the ying-yang for liavbility insurance, especially when it comes to listing roofing as the trade profession.

Contractors also have to pay between 40% to 65% and it can be higher of their employees wages for workers compensation insurance.

Did you suspect that they were buying the materials and supplying cheap labor, and that would be the only expenses they encounter?

What about their trucks and offices and secretarial staff?

After considering all of the items listed above, plus many that I may have omitted, I agree with you. You are being charged the wrong price. There should be an additional amount tacked on for profit and unexpected working conditions.

Ed

Ed the Roofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 07:25 PM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Hi Ed,

I certainly can understand your response (and tone) as roofing is your livelyhood.

First let me say that as a homeowner I can perform roofing and many other procedures on the structure provided it is done to code.

Incidentally I ran reconstruction jobs after Hurricane Andrew. Granted some things have changed since then but much of the process is still the same.

What I neglected to tell you is that I am doing this research because the first two contractors I spoke with gave me verbal estimates around $10k. They plan to send them to me next week. For me it was sticker shock for a 16x26 flat roof on a 2 story row house (accessible with a 12 foot extension ladder). And this was to be done over the existing roof. I am providing the dumpster for the gravel.

As for the tools, yes I do have many of the tools except the robotic welder but the hand guns can be had for $275 on ebay. Yes I have 10 gauge power cables that will reach up to the roof.

As far as OSHA guidelines are concerned, I have not seen any railings on a two story residential roofing job. I agree that the railings should be there for the workers safety but if you ask many of the people on this thread you will find few have seen them.

Again it is a 2 story building and a 24 foot ladder will suffice.

I agree insurance is costly and begs for an entire discussion thread of its own. As I originally stated I will be doing the work and therefore don’t need the liability insurance.

But the insurance issue you raise shouldn’t be one as this is a DIY thread for people who want to do it themselves. If you truly are a contributor here to help those of us who want to do it ourselves why do you keep recommending we use a contractor. Unless of course this is a thinly veiled conduit for contractors to source customers.

Ed, let’s be honest about materials and labor here. Materials in almost any trade or profession are a nominal expense on which you get a sizable yet justifiable markup; you have to source it out, pick it up and store it. I don’t take that away from you.

On the subject of labor, many that do the type of work you are involved with are a special “breed”. The best of the breed are elevated to management or at least supervisory levels. I remember having to arrange rides for many of the “roofing specialists” because they had their licenses taken away for various reasons. At least I could count on those guys showing up because a van would pick them up.

With respect to overhead, equipment like trucks, welders, brakes and staff are the cost of doing business and you can’t expect to pay them off with one job.


Ed, I didn't come into your sandbox to kick sand in your face I came here for advice on where to obtain the materials for a roofing job. What I got was a list of items a roofing contractor needs to be in business and a condescending attitude.

Again this is a DIY thread and your response did not contribute positively in any way.

That said I did appreciate the time you took to compose the response.
gapfiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 10:38 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,384
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post

To become a certified installer, you would have to be an established contractor. God forbid if they opened up the can of worms of allowing anyone with no previous roofing experience install their systems. How would that put their products name in good standing?

Ed
Before you get advice on how to install this type of roof and where you can buy it, read my first point that I made to you in my post.

As far as a thinly veiled attempt to conduit to source out customers, I provide this ongoing commentary and advice because I care for people to always be safe at a hazardous job and to know what to expect.

Did you list any of your attributes in your first post, regarding working in the construction field? No, and as such, you get clumped in together with everyone else who thinks, "It's only a roof, so anyone can do it" category.

Regarding:
"What I got was a list of items a roofing contractor needs to be in business and a condescending attitude.
Again this is a DIY thread and your response did not contribute positively in any way."

There have been many instances, when the full picture has been laid out, that some DIY's accepted initially, or in hindsight, wish that they had, the knowledge of what a proper and legitimate contractor must do, provide and pay, in order to intelligently and professionally perform as expected.

If you took that as condescending, then you should re-evaluate your opinion. If you think that I am attempting to belittle you, I suggest that you search all of my previous posts for a clearer picture and outlook on the advice I provide.

Also, if and when I ever advise a home owner to outsource the project to a professional contractor, that is primarily due to the fact that I forsee, from their lack of a gasp of the fundementals and safety issues involved, by promoting them to continue on in their self indulgent interests, would be party to condoning unsafe and unknowledgeable practices, which would eventually cause themselves more harm than good.

Upon a first post, that is akin to a hand shake and a greeting. I need you to know more about the project and the bids you have contemplated and I need to know more about you and your capabilities and the actual realistic envisionment of the project you are seeking help for.

The best advice can only be provided when a clear picture is available, so that all participants are on the same page as one another.

So, go back now, and do a brief amount of research on previous advice I have offered on this forum, and let me know if you think my agenda is to solicit additional customers and revenue from my efforts. As a matter of fact, find the August-September posts from a guy named SandyMan, who recently requested some additional information. See if I was leading anyone to a decision I felt was not in their own best interests. If you remain convinced that I am feigning professionally researched advice as a means to evolve and nurture additional customers, then I will remain out of this topic and not give you my honest assessment of your predicament.

Sincerely,

Ed

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 01-18-2008 at 10:41 PM.
Ed the Roofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 10:50 PM   #5
Commercial Flat Roofing
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 56
Rewards Points: 75
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Ed, don't feed the troll.

This guy already has the ALL the answers.

Time for a cup of Coffee.
Talos4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 10:57 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,384
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

TPO vs other membrane


To not have replied to his disparaging insinuation, could have been interpreted as if there must be merit to his point.

I sincerely hopes he does actually do the research of my posting advice history and recants his initial miscued obsevations.

Irregardless of one potential offensive and erroneous portrayal, I still am here and have been here to lend a helping hand as often as possible, without consideration, except for the good feeling one gets from being benevolent to others.

Thanks for the coffee though.

Ed
Ed the Roofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2008, 12:13 AM   #7
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Ed before we get into a spitting contest, which is where it seems to be headed, you should know that I certainly appreciate the valuable info you give in this thread. That has never been in question. My issue is with how you never addressed my only true request: “where can I obtain the materials?” If that question was not clear; for that I apologize.

Actually my initial question was going to be what do you think is better TPO or another membrane but I got distracted and posted what I had written to that point.

Back to the spitting match:

Forget what YOU first stated in the response – it has nothing to do with what I asked! You have to grant me that much.

Please re-read what I asked. I never asked anyone how to do it…just where the items could be purchased.

I don’t need to list my attributes or my experience. You need to take a post on its face value and answer the questions or NOT. If someone needs more info they will post a follow up question.

And as far as me taking it as condescending, what other word would you use to describe it.

By the way, there are other of examples of you going off on a tangent without immediately answering the original question.

This guy for example: http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=7946 was asking about flat roofs, maybe you just don’t like flat roofing questions. If you read the responses by the other members of this board like rooferjim or parkerfairfield you may notice, with an objective eye of course, their attempt to answer the gentlemen’s question. And like me he had to come back and justify why he was asking for help on a TPO roof.

And how is my question any different than this one that asks where to get a torch: http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=12326 which you answered directly.

Speaking of tangents our egos have taken us far off the purpose of this thread.

If you wish to answer my question I will appreciate any info you can give me; if not I will understand.

Thanks again for your time.
gapfiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2008, 01:17 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,384
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

TPO vs other membrane


You will have to indulge me for a brief moment to let me analyze your perspective in this matter. As I stated earlier, it would be better to know the persons qualifications, prior to offering assistance. From your total of a 1 post history, when I both offered you advice and tutored you about what goes into a contractors pricing, since you have already received 2 verbal quotes, all I was attempting to do was get a feel for the type of individual I would be guiding.

Now, I get a pretty good idea of your character and I resent it significantly. One, who has now stated that he will be doing this job himself, is still allowing 2 contractors estimators and secretarial staff to prepare written proposals for you, when all along you know you are stringing them along and wasting their time.

Wow! You certainly view things differently than I. If asking a man questions about what equipment and abilities he has before I attempt to steer him in the right direction is your version of going off on a tangent on someone, you are way too thin skinned.

Lets see where I went off on this man?:

Which brands of thermo-plastic roof membranes have you researched for this project?

Can you, as a non-certified applicator purchase that brand of material?
Have you ever done any hot-air roof membrane welding?

Do you own a $ 475.00 Liester hot air welding gun? What about variable speed screw guns with a clutch to disengage the torque? Not variable speed drills!

Answer those questions first, for a more precise commentary.

Ed

Now, let me see what my very next tangent like response was:

Duro-Last has been around "Installed On Roofs" longer than IB Roof Systems, but with that said, the IB membrane is a high quality one also.

Unless Duro-Last has changed their warranty, the residential warranty was for material cost only.

Duro-Last also has 100 % warranty coverage for ponding water on the roof membrane.

The quality of the installer and his seam welding and his flashing details will determine which roof system will out perform the other, in my opinion.

Ed

All I can say, is that seems pretty to the point and provided advice as requested.

Good luck on wasting 2 estimators time.

Ed

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 01-19-2008 at 01:28 AM.
Ed the Roofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2008, 01:50 AM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,384
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Now, lets see if the 2nd link you posted brings similar results.

How did he position his first post? Did he state he had no clue, or did he provide any past related experiences that I could begin to formulate an opinion of his qualifications?

Lets see:

Torch down info
I know the general feeling about helping amateurs with torch down, but let me explain myself. I have done a small amount of torch down in the past with successful results. It's been quite a while, but I think I remember the important parts.


Do you recall the part I mentioned, that a first post is like a hand shake and getting to know somebody? Does it seem that he constructively provided a good basis for someone to offer advice regarding his concerns?

I think the point has been clearly made.

This is not a pizzing match, but one that should be treated with "Mutual" respect. Not one, where a person can just come banging on the door with a "Holier Than Though" attitude and state, I don't have to tell you anything about what I do or don't know. I came here and you MUST answer my questions, NOW.

I and the other members donate our time and share our many, many years of experience and lessons learned the hard way with hundreds of people seeking assistance. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?



So now, lets start again.

You did not mention a brand of material you are seeking. When you do so, then I may be able to point you in the right direction where it is sold to contractors.

If your question is more along the lines of trying to find out which membrane is best, that can be answered differently from each contractor. I have personal experience with Duro-Last, Bond Cote, J.P. Stevens, Johns Manville, Mule Hide, Seamans Fibertite, Tro Cal, Gen Flex and a variety of other lesser known and used membranes.

Other contractors on this forum site know of another popular and knowledgeable roofing contractor, whom chooses to use IB Roofing Systems. No one that I am aware of on this forum, has actual hands on experience with it. From the reviews from that one contractor that the other contractors and I know, this seems to be a very good membrane and user friendly.

To the best of my knowledge, none of those membrane manufacturers have any program at all, where a non-certified contractor could purchase and install them.

Ed
Ed the Roofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2008, 02:45 PM   #10
Member
 
the roofing god's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pomona,New York,10970
Posts: 877
Rewards Points: 500
Send a message via MSN to the roofing god
Default

TPO vs other membrane


go to the library and research for yourself,I would tell you use IB SYSTEMS and have a pro do the job,ed`s looking out for your interests,you should appreciate it,that he does this for people as much as he does,your 1st estimates were extremely overpriced,but then again ,they met you in person and had to add for the difficulty factor,because they saw what you were like !
__________________
"If it`s worth doing,It`s worth doing right!!"

www.ADVANCEDROOFINGNEWYORK.com
the roofing god is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2008, 04:11 PM   #11
Remodeling Contractor
 
oldfrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northwest Ct.
Posts: 224
Rewards Points: 150
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Gapfiller,
From this statement;
The cost to take the course, supplies and equipment would still be much less than what they want to charge.

I can only add ,that even if my best employee got certified from taking the course,I would not leave him alone on a job until I was sure it was getting done correctly.
There are so many variables to consider on a project like this,that even the experienced installer sometimes is still on a learning curve. He has done enough projects to be able assess the problems and come up with viable solutions.
I think that a roofers/manufacturers warranty would have better resale value if done by a professional/certified installer.

Maybe your time could be better spent on projects within your grasp.If you add up the time for learning,cots of purchasing needed tools and equipment,time to chase down all your materials and tools,you'd probably save more by doing the demo and inside repairs.
Just a thought.
I can hang sheet rock and tape a room easily,but I'll hire out complete homes to the people who can do it faster and have more experience,leaving me to making money on what I know better.
It'll pay off in the long run.
oldfrt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 04:16 PM   #12
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1
Rewards Points: 10
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Gapfiller,
IB roofing systems look good, have a good track record, and a decent warranty. They don't sell products to individuals. If you want to use EPDM there are many places that sell it and you can find them online with a simple search. It is apparent that you were flamed by the professional roofer in this discussion but take him for his word anyway. He really does mean to help you. I don't know any honest roofers who would charge over 24 bucks a sq. foot. for any residential job, not counting the removal and cleanup of existing surfaces but that is one of the primary reasons diy are willing to diy. Cost. I'm sure that a contractor like Ed would not charge such an exhorbitant sum and his work would be well worth the expense he did charge - perhaps you should seek other contractors in your area. I am working on a contract with a roofer for an IB systems deck roof for our residence. If you like, I can let you know what kind of job they did.
kazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 09:20 PM   #13
Commercial Roofing
 
AaronB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 927
Rewards Points: 500
Default

TPO vs other membrane


This thread sucks.

Gapfiller, all the luck with your roof. Flat roofing is tricky. I hope you do well.
__________________
www.roseroofing.net/ Free inspection within 12 miles
Seamless Polyurea Roofing Membranes for Metal Roofing, Roof Leak Repair, Seamless Commercial Spray Foam Insulation, Seamless Commercial Roofing, SPF Roofing, Industrial Insulation, Our trucks are red but our roofing is GREEN!
AaronB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 10:00 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 406
Rewards Points: 250
Default

TPO vs other membrane


Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronB View Post
This thread sucks.

Gapfiller, all the luck with your roof. Flat roofing is tricky. I hope you do well.
Ditto that Aaron,he'll find out I guess.
johnk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2008, 12:05 PM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,384
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

TPO vs other membrane


This thread is from 3 months ago.

Someone just brought it up out of the old list to pat GapFiller on the back.

I haven't heard back to see if he was able to get certified by some manufacturer to do the job himself ever.

Those prices did seem high unless they were doing a tear-off also though.

Ed

Ed the Roofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Modified bitumen vs 60 mil EPDM membrane Flat Roof doingygirl Roofing/Siding 11 01-07-2008 08:41 AM
roof leak and EPDM membrane dbai Roofing/Siding 8 10-28-2007 05:16 PM
Shower membrane mc52 Building & Construction 2 01-27-2007 09:59 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.