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Old 04-21-2008, 03:00 PM   #1
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


I just had an Owens Corning 30 year architectural style roof installed on top of my old one. The contractor's sub failed to follow almost every one of the manufacturer's installation instructions on the package including:
1. racked them instead of stairing them (6 inch stagger)
2. nailed above and below the Surenail Fastening Strip (about 100 nails are actually showing from the roof because they are below the lap)
3. used too many nails - most shingles have 6 or more nails with double nails near the ends and some in the middles - none of the extra nails are in areas specified by Owens Corning
4. cut 3 tab shingles for the ridge vent and hip instead of using matching architectural style Hip and Ridge Shingles (several hip shingles cracked at the fold as soon as they installed them)
5. installed a portion for about 4 hours while it was raining
6. put bundles over the peak instead of laying them flat (over the weekend)
7. used the old roof for the starter strip instead of cutting a new one

I am concerned that the whole installation violates the mfgrs instructions but don't know how much problem I may have from this. I wish I could start over with a decent roofing contractor but the job was nearly completed before I saw what was going on, and now its complete. One area roofing contractor came out and looked at it and told me he wouldn't pay another cent and that I should have it torn off and start over. The manufacturer doesnt say what problems may be caused by these violations, they just say the installer must follow their installation instructions. Can anyone suggest what I should do / whether and to what degree I might have problems from these practices? I had a lot of problems with the original roof shingles blowing off - we do get some pretty strong winds through here. After two weeks the one problem I see already is that some of the rain goes behind the gutter and drains down on the soffit which did not happen on the old roof. On one rake end, the rain runs down on the under surface of the vinyl vented soffit and by the time the water reaches the lower end, a stream of water like would come from a faucet runs out of the soffit, not at the outer corner, but at the inside corner. Don't know why but wasnt like this before.

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Old 04-21-2008, 05:22 PM   #2
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


That is exactly why I don't use subcontractors to install our roofs for our customers.

The contractor and his salesman may talk about quality, but the subcontractor is only there to get done as fast as possible while taking as many short cuts he can get away with.

Speed versus quality.

If there are exposed nails, that is a problem. Some of the other concerns are less of a problem

It is acceptable to use a matching colored 3-tab shingle for a hip or ridge cap and sometimes even preferable due to those having a sealant strip whereas the specialty pieces do not typically.

Which product was specified in the contract, since that is what determines if they followed that portion of the contract or not, or did they leave it vague and unclear?

They should have used a 5" starter strip and nested the shingles into the old pattern. You will have a very bumpy looking roof if they didn't.

Some manufacturers allow the racking method as an acceptable alternative, but it is not the method of choice, even if allowed.

But, what did the contract state?

Did it state that they would follow the manufacturers installation guidelines or the NRCA published guidelines? Mostly a cosmetic issue down the road though.

If it was warm when the bundles were layed out on the ridge, that should not present a problem, but if the shingles were cold and brittle, that could.

Did they get caught in the rain unexpectedly? Or, where they already there and would do anything it took to get the roof done so they could get payed?

Major misplacement of nails is a major issue, although it is common for some to be not exactly where they belong, but not the majority of them.

You might now need to have a 2-layer tear-off done on your home prematurely because the contractor aided you in chooding to do a cheap reroof instead of accepting the better method, which would have been to start from a fresh deck by removing the old shinges.

By any chance, was this contractor one of the lowered priced ones? Not trying to pick on you, but just want to know what qualification process you used to select one contractor over another.

Ed


Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 04-21-2008 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:27 PM   #3
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


I'm in no way a pro when it comes to roofing!

That said, maybe it's just better to live with it. Have a beer and forget it.

I hate poor quality jobs and like you, I ask questions on sites like this to learn and improve my skills.

If you do regular inspections and make keen observations you should be able to spot a major problem before it happens.

In the very worse case your insurance is going to cover the roof!

Take it easy dude..


BTW..I can hardly wait to hear from the pros!
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:27 PM   #4
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


I'd call it sub-standard. Pics would be a help. Water coming in where it didn't before? Not good. No starter? It's necessary for the bottom course to seal.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:42 PM   #5
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


Ed thanks for your reply. I'm looking for a solution that makes me whole. The contract only stated the exact name of the shingles we agreed upon and the price. The mfgr does not make a 3 tab by that name. I picked the contractor because I had seen the bay windows he built - very professional - we talked about not racking my roof before I signed the contract -- he said he used his own crew for the roofing and that he would be there as well - he was not the cheapest. IN addition to his fine carpentry work and the recommendation of others, he also has two subdivisions, one with expensive homes, so I thought that spoke to his experience. I opted for the roof over because I have always understood that to be standard practice. I trusted that he would do a good job and I was out of town except for the last part. As it turned out, he used subs and was only there part of the first day himself.
I see what you're saying about the starter course - had they installed that by cutting the lower part of the shingle off, the first course would have laid on the sealant properly. As it is, there is nothing for the first course to seal to -- is this why rain water sits between the starter and the first course? Is this why rain water runs onto the soffit? Is there a remedy?
What is the remedy for the exposed nails? They put a black sealant over some of them.
Their standard nailing procedure was to put an extra nail at each end, and a high nail dead center above the nailing strip. Whenever they put one in on an angle, they shot in another one near it. They told me "you cant have too many nails". What problem might this cause?
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:48 AM   #6
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred213 View Post
I just had an Owens Corning 30 year architectural style roof installed on top of my old one. The contractor's sub failed to follow almost every one of the manufacturer's installation instructions on the package including:
1. racked them instead of stairing them (6 inch stagger)
2. nailed above and below the Surenail Fastening Strip (about 100 nails are actually showing from the roof because they are below the lap)
3. used too many nails - most shingles have 6 or more nails with double nails near the ends and some in the middles - none of the extra nails are in areas specified by Owens Corning
4. cut 3 tab shingles for the ridge vent and hip instead of using matching architectural style Hip and Ridge Shingles (several hip shingles cracked at the fold as soon as they installed them)
5. installed a portion for about 4 hours while it was raining
6. put bundles over the peak instead of laying them flat (over the weekend)
7. used the old roof for the starter strip instead of cutting a new one

I am concerned that the whole installation violates the mfgrs instructions but don't know how much problem I may have from this. I wish I could start over with a decent roofing contractor but the job was nearly completed before I saw what was going on, and now its complete. One area roofing contractor came out and looked at it and told me he wouldn't pay another cent and that I should have it torn off and start over. The manufacturer doesnt say what problems may be caused by these violations, they just say the installer must follow their installation instructions. Can anyone suggest what I should do / whether and to what degree I might have problems from these practices? I had a lot of problems with the original roof shingles blowing off - we do get some pretty strong winds through here. After two weeks the one problem I see already is that some of the rain goes behind the gutter and drains down on the soffit which did not happen on the old roof. On one rake end, the rain runs down on the under surface of the vinyl vented soffit and by the time the water reaches the lower end, a stream of water like would come from a faucet runs out of the soffit, not at the outer corner, but at the inside corner. Don't know why but wasnt like this before.
Sorry to hear about your roof. I have actually torn one off after 3 months because it was so bad. First of all why does anybody think that roofing over an old roof is going to last. As soon as it forms to the old roof it starts to crack & lose granules(about 8 years) Second, something should be done about the exposed nails as they will weep water & the plywood will continually stay moist(mold happens after this) The 30 year Owens Corning is a bit of a lightwieght, inexpensive, more of a new construction shingle(most new construction contractors buy cheap)I don't know how much you still owe but I wouldn't pay it either. I once did $6000 in repairs to a new roof. It's up to you fix it as best you can or tear it off.
Dale Chomechko (DC Roofing Inc)
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:48 PM   #7
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


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Originally Posted by Fred213 View Post

I opted for the roof over because I have always understood that to be standard practice. I trusted that he would do a good job and I was out of town except for the last part. As it turned out, he used subs and was only there part of the first day himself.
I see what you're saying about the starter course - had they installed that by cutting the lower part of the shingle off, the first course would have laid on the sealant properly. As it is, there is nothing for the first course to seal to -- is this why rain water sits between the starter and the first course? Is this why rain water runs onto the soffit? Is there a remedy?

What is the remedy for the exposed nails? They put a black sealant over some of them.

Their standard nailing procedure was to put an extra nail at each end, and a high nail dead center above the nailing strip. Whenever they put one in on an angle, they shot in another one near it.

They told me "you cant have too many nails". What problem might this cause?
For the exposed nails, the shingles should be removed properly and replaced with the proper nailing pattern, without damaging the other shingles it is in contact with.

The black roofing cement is only now sticking to the granule surface of the shingles and when they loosen up, so will the sealant.

For the angled and crooked nail placement, the angled nail head will work its way through the shingles in every one of those locations, leaving a hole through the shingle and allow water to follow the nail shaft into the attic and home.

The installers either lied to you or did not know the proper specifications. Too bad they did not read the bundle wrapper. It has the instructions right on them usually.

Ed
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:22 PM   #8
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


Sorry to hear this...It's pretty bad when a Property Owner can find multiple faults...When there is a contractor (GC?) and a sub...involved with the installation...

Last edited by AtlanticWBConst.; 04-23-2008 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:31 AM   #9
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


I am sorry to hear of your trouble. I know exactly how you feel.
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Old 05-04-2008, 10:07 PM   #10
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


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Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
For the exposed nails, the shingles should be removed properly and replaced with the proper nailing pattern, without damaging the other shingles it is in contact with.

The black roofing cement is only now sticking to the granule surface of the shingles and when they loosen up, so will the sealant.

For the angled and crooked nail placement, the angled nail head will work its way through the shingles in every one of those locations, leaving a hole through the shingle and allow water to follow the nail shaft into the attic and home.

The installers either lied to you or did not know the proper specifications. Too bad they did not read the bundle wrapper. It has the instructions right on them usually.

Ed
Ed thanks for your advice. After the comments you and others made, I had 3 of the largest and oldest roofing firms in the area inspect my roof and provide estimates for making repairs. All three criticized the same things. Besides the fact that the installation was racked, which noneof them agreed with, there are in excess of 75 nails visible scattered around the roof. The contractors lifted a few shingles and without exception never saw one that was nailed properly. Most had nails outside the SureNail strip, some nails were driven through the shingle, some were sitting up about an 1/8th inch, some were at angles, and some were fine. They all said I would have leaks where this second roof abutts the house because they said flashing should have been used to run behind the vinyl siding and on top of the old shingle. They also thought it not appropriate to use 3 tabs for the ridge and hip when the rest of the roof material was Owens Corning Oakridge Pro 30 AR shingles.

Two of the contractors would not agree to make repairs because the roof needed to come off. The third felt the best solution was a new roof, but said he would prepare an estimate to make the fixes (that can be made) like removing shingles and installing the flashing and removing and replacing the shingles where nails are showing, and putting on new ridge vents and Hip and Ridge shingles; BUT, they would do the work only if I agree that his company is in no way responsible, because the roof was not properly installed to begin with. He said the problem I will have will be with the improperly driven nails that are not visible now - that eventually I would have problems with blow offs and leaks. I have not gotten his estimate yet, but I expect it will be a lot. I would like to be able to start over and just get a new roof, but now two roofs have to come off, and apparently my four 1990 vintage skylights may need to be replaced, so my $6000 reroof job will become over $10,000, not including my deposit which the current general contractor has.

If I opt to have the repairs done to stall for awhile the inevitable, I don't think I should have to let the folks who botched it up make them, I feel likle they would just continue with their sloppy work, and probably would resent being up there. What do you think? Instead shouldnt they have to use the money I paid them toward paying a real roofing professional to do the repairs?
If I opt to go with a new roof, shouldn't the general contractor be liable for the extra costs?
Any thoughts you may have on how I should proceed---- and what is fair and reasonable --- I would greatly appreciate.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:19 AM   #11
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


Even though the first company "Botched" up the job, I believe that there may be a requirement, either morally ethical or legal, to attempt to have them mitigate the improper installation problems you currently are faced with.

Have that work done under supervision and also re-inspected if they do come out to take care of it.

Once they either willingly oblige, or hesitate and delay the inevitable, then you have the right to inform them that you will be seeking the repairs to be done by others and justifieably back charge them to make your roof "Whole" as contractualy intended.

Getting the back charged money may be a simple agreement between you and the initial contractor, or it may wind up being a small claim court case.

Approach the original contractor first and see what they wil do to "Properly" resolve the problem. If it immediately needs a complete new roof tear-off of the now 2-layered roof, they may be responsible and might be able to put it through their Completed Operations portion of their General Liability Insurance Policy.

Please let me know which direction this winds up heading in.

Ed
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:15 AM   #12
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SubStandard Roofing Installation


call your lawyer,and your local consumer protection agency/licensing bureau,have them look at the job and verify what`s been done---DO NOT throw good money after bad,rip both layers of roof off ,and start fresh.this time do it right,this time look for a roofer,not a carpenter/gc,look at jobs they`ve done,and speak to their customers,---hopefully the agency,or your layer can get back your money (hopefully plus damages-1st roof no longer suitable for layover?),if not consider it a lesson learned,and do yourself a favor,
DO IT RIGHT THIS TIME !!---The roof is the most important part of your house,as it protects not only your house but everything below it !!--don`t scrimp there-EVER !

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