Should installed drip edge cover fascia board?
Hi - I'm so happy to find you! I had a new roof installed last year, by a highly recommended and reputable roofing company. The house is 100 years old, and they ran into some rotten decking (which they replaced) and some fascia damage - this was no surprise. I remember being glad that we had chosen such meticulous people.
It wasn't until this year that I was looking at some fascia damage (which I mentioned above) and there are gaps between the drip edge and the fascia - it almost seems as if the roof has "lifted" since they put it in. The roofers met with me a few days later and said that their job was to attach the drip edge to the edge of the decking, and that the fascia needs to be replaced.
While I agree that some fascia needs replacing, I have two concerns about the roof:
1) while repairing fascia in one of the worst areas (bottom of a slope), we noticed that the underpinnings were rotten - nothing to nail the new fascia to. We had to reconstruct the soffitt and some of the supports. Now I'm wondering if there wasn't MORE rotten stuff under the old roof they tore off (maybe that accounts for the "lifting");
2) I don't think it's "standard practice" to have to replace all the fascia after re-roofing, is it? I think they should have put wider drip edge (enough to cover the existing fascia).
But I don't know about standards or customs - can you help me out before I blow my lid with them? I really do want to work with them to correct the problems, rather than go to the BBB.
Thanks - a whole bunch!
I will try to answer your questions in the order they were asked by number.
1.When repairing rotted rafter tails.That is the part of the beginning of the rafter that runs along the gutter line in which the fascia board is usually fastened to.
Instead of building a box to fasten the fascia board to (I am not saying to NOT have soffit.,.Very important to have it.) Depending on the homeowners/project budget I do 1 of 2 ways.
1a- Remove the entire rafter and replace it.(Very expensive)
2b.Cut the rafter that has rot behind the top plate a minimum of 3' then "Scab" the new rafter to the rafter cut then cross brace,block brace to the neighboring rafters.
I feel its important to remove as much of the rotted rafter as possible.Some people just "Scab" the new rafter to the rafter that is rotted.Why would you attach new lumber to rotted lumber ?
2.Yes its very important to replace any and all rotted fascia board.Usually its much easier to replace the rotted fascia during the reroof process.Being able to access the fascia after the roof is off during the prep stage of the reroof should result in a much more affordable and reasonable labor charge.
If the fascia board is repaired after the reroof process the possibility of damage to the components is greater.( e.g.,1st and 2nd shingle courses,Starter course,moisture guard,felt,drip edge)
Drip edge over rotted fascia is like putting a band-aid over a broken finger.Its pointless and the damage is still there and will continue to worsen.
If the customer wants me to install new drip edge over bad fascia then I have them sign an exclusion/amend to my workmanship warranty for the 1st course of shingles attached to the decking up to a 1"x8",2 courses for decking up to 1"x12" and 24" for plywood.
I have only exercised that 1 time.Once I start explaining my exclusion the customer will realize the importance of the fascia replacement/repair.
The proper method of replacing rotted fascia board is to replace ALL rotted fascia and ALL structure components associated with the rotted fascia directly or otherwise sharing the rotting process.( e.g Fascia,decking,rafters/tails,soffit and insulation and ceiling drywall.)
Some may argue that the fascia is not a roofiers/contactors problem.No maybe not to some.But I say that it could be my problem in the future if that fascia rot affects the performance of the roof system I installed in any way.
It might not be the roofer/contactors problem or responsibility but it IS their responsibility to inform the customer of any issues for anything the see that might affect the structure in any way.
The customer is relying on the roofer/contractor to have knowledge and expertise in their field but would I am sure would like to know if they see something that might give them some grief in the future. IMHPO of course.
Thanks, very much, Roofmaster! Not ALL the fascia is rotten, in fact very little of it is - there are areas where the fascia is just fine, but the drip edge they installed doesn't reach the fascia, so there's an open space sometimes as much as 1/2" where rain could get in. The roofer assured me no water would get in there because of the little "jack leg" angle on the drip edge. But here we get wind and rain together, so I'm not convinced.
I've attached a couple of pictures, since they do say 1000 words, in this case most of them bad (words)! https://picasaweb.google.com/1074641...eat=directlink
Anyone else seeing almost no over hang on the shingles?
Yes Joe I see it too.That is one nasty looking installation.Improper overhang,improper valley lace,exposed step flashing,face nailing step flashing,intentional siding damage as a result of face nailing step flashing.Geeeez.,.If I found out my crews installed something like that they would be unemployed.EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY !!!!
Yikes! What do I do now? I have a meeting with the roofer this afternoon (in a couple of hours). I was going to ask him to replace the drip edge with something wider - should I get tougher than that?
Remove that exposed and face nailed step flashing.Install the step flashing behind the siding.If its not possible to install the step behind the siding then install a trim board over the step flashing.It really gets under my skin and makes me violent when people nail step flashing to the roof and the wall.
That valley shot shows no lace in the opening.That is required when doing a cut laced valley.
Some people are lazy and just nail the step flashing to the wall and do it because they cannot get a gun underneath to fire a nail.There is a new invention.,.actually its been out for years.Its called a palm nailer.Great for getting into those hard to reach places allowing you to do your work properly.
Thank you again, both Joe and Roofmaster!:thumbup:
I had not read your message before I went to the meeting, and we hemmed and hawed around a bit, but finally I said:
I want an inspection of the roof to determine it hasn't "lifted";
If it turns out the roof is all right, we need to put wider drip edge on it;
(and luckily a friend had stopped by, and he said:
"either cover that step flashing with some trim, or do it right and put it behind the siding".)
We'll need to do the trim, because it's an old house and the siding will be impossible to replace (I'm pretty sure it will break in the process of trying to take it off to do it right.)
We're also going to want to sell this house within 4 years. This same friend also suggested I get a 3rd party inspection company to come out and do a formal inspection, with a report. (So we have something in the file when we go to sell it.) If it passes, we have that to show a potential buyer, and if it doesn't we can ask the roofers to make the suggested repairs.
I also found out that when the job was done, no one saw any "adult" supervising the "kids" that were doing it. I was out of town, but my tenant said they used her lawn chairs to get up on the roof, and didn't even have a ladder!:huh::(
I'll need to research the valley lace thing.
You have been an invaluable resource to me, and I can't thank you enough!:thumbsup::biggrin: But I have one more question: Should I ask them foot the bill for the repairs, since it wasn't done right? Or is it more fair for me to chip in?
Thanks - again,
Sincerely, Erin Dillon
Personally when I pay for a product or service.,.,I only want to pay for the service one time after its been paid.
If you want to pay for the same thing twice then its your business.But as for me.,.,I would not give up a dime.
Also I know I always say this same thing to people who are caught up in shoddy workmanship but.,Before the repairs are made request a letter of intent from the contractor.
A letter of intent from the contractor will specify his intentions about resolving the situation to meet the customers expectations and or action to be taken to bring the project to code and to comply with manufacture specifications.
And I would also request a timeline on the repairs.Meaning how long it will be before the repairs are made,materials to be used and the length of time for completion once the repairs begin.
Also have your workmanship warranty in writing and make sure it is as thorough and specific as possible.
The lawn chair story is funny.,.,in a way of course.But IMHPO it shows a very high level of irresponsibility and anything but professionalism.
It seems not many contractors these days make job site visits anymore.My guys know I will appear at some point in the morning and its a good possibility I will show up at some point in the afternoon as well.
And I inspect everything from the clean up to full blown roof inspections.(Overhang,step flashing placement,nail patterns etc) And I am extremely particular about a super straight roof.I am tough and expect nothing but the best from my crews.For the roof,siding and gutter installations.
I highly doubt my guys would ever install something like that.And if they did that project would have been corrected before you paid a single penny.
Again, Roofmaster - thank you, I agree. :thumbup: I will go with your advice, and just have one more question:
Do you work in Boise, Idaho? :wink: We could sure use someone with your professionalism and level of detail!
Thank you for the compliment.I cover portions of Missouri and on occasion Florida.I am positive there are contractors in Idaho who are equally quality and ethic concious as I am.
I feel that my customers have payed for their homes with some blood,sweat and tears.Especially in todays economy.Lets face it quality homes are really not cheap and now it seems homeowners are finding it very difficult to keep out of foreclosure.
Last thing they need is someone trying to slap on a crap roof,siding or gutters and making life difficult.
What's funny is these "Roofers" and "Contractors" spend more time doing something wrong than it takes to do it right.
In your contractors mind they might have done it right.But you only have 1 shot at keeping customer faith.Once you lose that it can never be gained again.
Short story.,VERY TRUE !!!
I had a customer who was moving to Colorado from Chesterfield Missouri.The wife was extremely spoiled.Her landscaping cost as much as a new Corvette.Anything you could imagine being in the way or weighing so much it could not be moved was present.A very beautiful yard full of elephant ears to other types of plants with more syllables than I can remember.
The home was a very beautiful home and was clean and the lawn was manicured.The roof was steep and everything hit the ground because of pitch.We took 2 layers off and at the end of the job I was happy that NOTHING was damaged and she was very happy.And when a very spoiled and picky customer says something like that it seems to mean a little more than the usual homeowner.
We were waiting on the dumpster service to pick up the dumpster.It was a pretty large dumpster.The customer and I just finished our business and I was in possession of my final payment upon completion that also had a nice bonus that I split with the crew.
The dumpster service arrived and hooked up to the dumpster and pulled out to leave.The driver used no spotter and just pulls out in a hurry.The side of the dumpster caught the corner of the garage and ripped a hole about 5 feet high by around 10 feet long out of the house.
Even though it was not my fault my customer faith is gone.I had never seen anyone shed so many tears in public in my life.I felt so bad for her and sorta felt bad for the driver when she was done with him.Actually I was mad too.The job went according to my plan but the dumpster service ruined for me what I spent so much time trying to maintain.,,,Customer faith.
The customer faith that was lost in my situation is a bit different than face nailing step flashing,inadequate overhang or improper lace on a valley but if you think about it.,its really the same.The end result is the loss of customer faith.
Now if you mentioned my name the first thing she thinks of is the hole in her house.Even though I was not at fault its just one of those things.
I hate it when that happens :furious:! In my business also, I often have to rely on services that I just need at the time, and so have to find people with whom I have no relationship. Sometimes they're great, more often not. Yet it's all a reflection on me, rather than them.
I hope your relationship with the customer before-hand, and whatever follow up you did afterwards, was more of a true reflection on YOU, rather than that one incident.
I had a situation with a general manager at a company I worked for - he had made some rash choices on his own which turned out to look like my fault. When I followed up with him I made a joke about it ("how do you like me so far?") and then called him on his own actions. All I can tell you about the outcome was, I worked for him for 9 years after. :yes:
People know what your character is by the way you treat them, not only up to the sale, but also afterwards - especially when things go wrong, and you have to make tough choices, but also include them in the decisions.
YOU have true character - thanks again!:thumbsup: I would bet that you get a lot of referrals. True?
The Joplin tornado really kept us busy for a year.Trying to juggle work between cities that were 65 miles apart and in between was hectic.Work in those areas really slowed to a crawl.I am back in STL doing my previous customers hail damage jobs.I have been here since August and I am booked till April 2013.I am still doing work in Springfield and Joplin.
I have contractor friends all over the United States and several want me to partner in Jersey and NY but I am sitting that one out.Everybody and their brother will be there.I would really like to help the citizens who were affected by Sandy but the material pricing,underbidders,scammers and such really make it something I would much rather stay away from.
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