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Old 10-26-2012, 01:42 PM   #46
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Roof estimate LOL


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I am being looked down on for shopping price and negotiating. Keep in mind I am not setting the starting point of the negotiations the contractors are! JIm
I don't believe you are Jim. Not by me, and I'm sure not by the others. Grumpy was pointing out that some bidders don't know their own numbers. Many deal in cash for instance, don't even pay true dues for it. They're happy to do two on the books and 3 off and pocket the rest. Those and others can and do offer very low prices. Not a biggie to me, but it's what happens around here.
No reflection on you at all.

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Old 10-26-2012, 06:12 PM   #47
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I am being looked down on for shopping price and negotiating. Keep in mind I am not setting the starting point of the negotiations the contractors are! JIm
Yes I am looking down on you Jim, the others might not be but I most definitely am. I do believe I may be saying what some are thinking. Or maybe I am just an Ahole, no I am an Ahole, but there is more to it than that.

Yes as I look down on all price shoppers, not just you. It has nothing to do with you as a person. it has to do with your obvious disrespect for my chosen profession.


Start of negotiations? What negotiation? Negotiation? Gary had it right. The price is the price. Do you go to best buy to buy your brand new tv and ask for a discount. The price is the price. Can't afford a 52" buy a 46" TV. Can't afford a rolls royce, buy a huyndia.

What if your boss came to you and said, I know I have been paying you $Y per hour but I think you are worth less, so now I am going to pay you $x per hour. You wouldn't be to happy about that would you? Why would you do that to another person? I state here and now I get very offended when people ask me for discounts. It means they don't believe I am worth what I am asking. I believe I am worth what I am asking, I am not padding anything really. People very seldom ever ask me for discounts. And when they do, I take something away.

Want a discount? save 2% if paying by cash or check, no credit cards. I am losing nothing since I mark the credit card fee into the job. I WILL NOT cut my profit.

Want a discount? I'll knock out the 5 star 25 year workmanship warranty. The new warranty will be less than half the years either 6 or 10. I will NOT cut my profit.

I can drop the felt quality, drop the ice shield quality, drop the shingle quality, but I most certainly WILL NOT take money from my kdis college fund so you can save a few bucks. Not gonna happen.



The only comfort I get is when cheap people hire someone else and call me back to fix their mistakes. Pay me now or pay me later.
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Sometimes the savings that comes from doing it yourself can be blown away with one mistake.

The information found in this post is not to be considered legal advice. All information should be considered relative, not specific. Never attempt any repairs you are not comfortable with. Always maintain safety! The author of this post takes no responsibility for any losses that occur. Use at your own risk.
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:55 PM   #48
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Just for 5hits and giggles, I can offer the same materials as Grumpy, with a top notch installation, for $6700 and still put well over $1000 in my pocket per day and be home by 3pm. IN MY REGION!
But I can buy those materials for around $100 p/sq. I know they pay a lot more in Florida, plus you have all those inspections.


JWilliams850, I don't know how many Roofing Company owners I have heard (online) call ME a low baller because my BOSS pays me $30 p/sq. Glad to hear I'm not the only one getting hosed, sorry
You would think if companies are charging $350 p/sq the guy that actually installs the roof (without leaks) would at least get around $50 p/sq. But then capitalism kicks in, and the company profits are more important than paying top dollar for quality installation. But boy oh boy, leak a roof and they are ALL OVER YOU!
I couldn't get a sub to touch a roof for $30 / sq unless it was an overlay. And if it leaks yes - I'm pissed, and they have to fix it.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:00 PM   #49
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The bottom line is that these old guys earn their reputations, then the wisest among us pay whatever they choose to charge.

In a world of $45,000 pickup trucks who cares as long as the job is done right? When it comes to "senior" experts in any given field, you pay what you pay. It is generally worth it in peace of mind, but you could always roll the dice on your own judgement of human beings to spend less on the young guy.

But if you're wrong, you're screwed. That's why the old guys can charge so much.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:02 PM   #50
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To add to Grumpy's post, my price is my price. If you want me to drop ice and water shield, or reuse old beat up flashings to save a couple hundred bucks, find someone else because I'm not going to warranty a roof that isn't done to my specs. In general, a customer that's willing to sacrafice those kind of things that you won't have a chance to do again until next time you tear it off to save a few hundred on a $10k job are the most difficult to work for also.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:29 PM   #51
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Wait a minute, I'm deeply attached to my money, not stupid! I am not going to reuse flashing, but unless it was negotiated it is going in my scrap pile, not yours!

I actually took a BIG cut in pay, like a third, I had no choice. But I was over paid anyway and I have simple tastes and never spent as much as I made. But still not very pleasant.

I do not view you as an Ahole, you are a person of principles who knows what he is worth and demands it. I can respect that. We would never work well together, but I might recommend you to someone who needed a good trust able contractor.

Some people like to play golf, I like to negotiate and I'm damned good at it. And on rare occasion I get my clock cleaned, can't win them all.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by imautoparts View Post
The bottom line is that these old guys earn their reputations, then the wisest among us pay whatever they choose to charge.

In a world of $45,000 pickup trucks who cares as long as the job is done right? When it comes to "senior" experts in any given field, you pay what you pay. It is generally worth it in peace of mind, but you could always roll the dice on your own judgement of human beings to spend less on the young guy.

But if you're wrong, you're screwed. That's why the old guys can charge so much.
Actually, that isn't correct. I'm a senior expert in my field. I have 35 yrs in my field as well. But, that doesn't equate to "pay what you pay." The moment there is someone with even close to my skills at a lower pay grade (usually in China or India), I'm gone and I know it. My pay has been cut significantly as well. It wasn't how Grumpy described it, but rather no raises in 10 yrs and pick up the workload of the 2 others that lost their jobs. So, more work by alot, less pay by inflation.

My best friend is an master carpenter and he doesn't see steady work due to wages. Some years he has work, and other he doesn't. The pay scales don't always line up with what companies will pay for labor.

I can tell from Grumpy's answers to various posts on the site he is very knowledgeable and probably an excellent person to hire. But, if I can't afford to hire him I will look at a more competitive bid.

I recently hired a company to replace my windows and siding. We did quite a bit of negotiation on price. It was a pretty large bid (31 windows, 16 sq siding,4 gable ends, 3 shed dormers, 510 lin ft trim/sofit/fascia, 3 doors installed as well. They needed the work, I needed to hit a price point so it was affordable. We worked out a deal that both of us were satisfied. I picked them over higher bids and a big box store that was way more. This company was not new to the business, but had 20 yrs of experience, a stack of references, repeat customers and high praise. But, with unemployment over 10% in this area, everyone is trying to get by. The job they did was simply excellent and the attention to detail superb. They were happy to have the business and I was happy to be able to afford to hire them.

Many experienced contractors with excellent reputations will also work with customers on price. I am glad that Grumpy has enough business that he doesn't have to do that. But, I made the right choice with my selection at a much better price.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:09 AM   #53
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LIke I said I expect regional differences, but if APPLES to APPLES there won't be 40% differences. BCDemon it would be collusion for me to suggest you raise your prices on your side jobs, but if not less than 4 reputable contractors here stated the price would be $10k+ and you come in at less than $7k, SOMETHING is wrong. I'm just asking you before you price your next side job to consider all the variables involved to run a legitimate roofing company.
But you guys that est. 10K don't live in Kamloops BC. You would never get someone to pay $380 p/sq for a basic re-roof. The going rate around here starts around $250. A lot of other "Chuck in a Truck" businesses charge way less, and pay way less. Hell I had a company beat me on my friends house @ $180 per sq. I gave him a smoking deal at $200 p/sq because we've known each other for years.

But like I said, when I hear guys talk about paying $100 p/sq just for shingles, then it's easy to understand a $350 p/sq quote. I pay 40% less than that.
On the flip side, if I can make one of my regular 2 week paychecks in 3 days, I won't feel bad about it at all.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:58 AM   #54
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Did your friend hire the other company? Even as cheap as I am I would hire my long term friend!
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:37 PM   #55
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Did your friend hire the other company? Even as cheap as I am I would hire my long term friend!
JIm
Oh no, I did it. Even gave him a cheaper price because he got up and helped me lol.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:59 PM   #56
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That's odd, my friends charge extra when I want to help JIm

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