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jjrbus 10-22-2012 04:31 PM

Roof estimate LOL
So I call a well known, recommended roofing company for an estimate. Gary shows up, Gary is 77! and a character. Carries the ladder over and up to the roof he goes. Takes his measurements and chats all the time. Interesting stuff. Says he needs the job as he is trying to keep 38 people working!

Want me to hold that tape I say, naw I'll just guess, been doing this a long time ya know:laughing: and he did! (I think he counted shingles?)

What type of shingle should I use I ask, here he says and hands me a Owens Corning TruDefinition Duration book. If you want a good price use these, I buy them by the truckload, get em cheap. (I can understand that:laughing:)

Said he will figure this out at home call me later with a price, if he remembers?

I hope I can use Gary, just made my day:thumbup: JIm

oh'mike 10-22-2012 05:35 PM

We need a cheerful person to wander into our day----I'll bet he does keep a big crew busy----

kwikfishron 10-22-2012 06:14 PM

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Originally Posted by jjrbus (Post 1035880)
Want me to hold that tape I say, naw I'll just guess, been doing this a long time ya know:laughing: and he did! (I think he counted shingles?)

I doubt he was counting shingles but counting sticks of metal can get you close. Close enough for an accurate guestimate on a simple roof. :)

Same on the siding end, counting rafter tails or soffit panels and downspout pieces can get you in the ballpark. Close enough to shoot you a price, on the simple stuff anyway.

Grumpy 10-22-2012 08:16 PM

I count shingles very frequently. If you know the exposure it's simple math. exposure x courses / 12 = rafter length. You'll be accurate to within a half a course.

If it is a 3 tab roof you can also measure width, each tab is usually 1'.

Actually it is a technique I used to use when selling vinyl siding, you can get a very accurate measurement of the wall height by measuring exposure and counting courses. Again accurate to within a half course. Sometimes I will take a pic and count on my computer, i find it easier than when a customer is yacking in my ear as I am trying to count 60 4" exposures, lol

jjrbus 10-23-2012 06:42 AM

He remembered to call me back last night :thumbup:and wants to hook up today to go over bid.

The only measurement he made was on the rear of the roof from the peak to the edge. I suspect if I was not there he would not have gone up on roof?

I have to call the person who referred him. Doing my due diligence there are two company at the same address. Joe's roofing and joe's roofing and gutters. According to the BBB one has an A+ rating and the other has an F rating, but with only 3 complaints and one unresolved complaint. If he has 38 people working and only 3 complaints with BBB, that is a great record!

Interesting, nobody commented on his shingle choice? JIm

bcdemon 10-23-2012 08:27 AM

A+ rating means he has paid his bill with BBB on time, lol.
As far as shingle choice, OC is a decent brand, especially now that they have stopped the full tar/sealant strip and gone to an intermittent tar/sealant strip. Not my preferred choice though (Certainteed).
Quality Installation is more important than shingle brand.

Ask Gary if he is using subs or his own 'hand hired" crew.

Roofmaster417 10-23-2012 12:20 PM

38 people for one roof ? I know of an Amish crew that had 27 and they built an entire house from start to finish in 24 hours.

IMO the BBB (Blah,Blah,Blah) is just another source of revenue.The KKK has an A+ business rating so go figure.I don't put much stock in the BBB.

As far as Gary it would be your decision.Personally I don't tell my customers that I get a product super cheap and by the truck load.The customer really does not want to hear the word "Cheap" associated with a product they are relying on to keep themselves and personal property safe and dry from the elements.

Case in point.,you asked online about this product.So realistically the word cheap gave you doubt and you did not even know it.

Grumpy 10-23-2012 12:39 PM

BBB ratings are meaningless just look at years in business and complaint history.BCDemon, actually that's not true anymore about the A+ rating, it used to be. However the BBB got sued over this practice. I was surprised to see I have an A+ rating and I most certainly do not pay them any money!

Also simply google search his name and his company name(s), and see what comes up if he is really bad people will leave lots of negative comments on the various websites.

OC isn't a terrible shingle. I will install it upon request. However OC floods the market with their 2nds (meaning flawed) materials so be sure you are getting genuine OC material with warranty and not OC 2nds. The guys I know buying OC's by the truck load and I know one roofer and one supplier, buy the 2nds and flood the market.

Roofmaster, I don't think he has 38 people on one roof, maybe he has 4 crews and an office staff? I wonder for the 38 people though if he's making any money selling cheap roofing.

Yeah Roofmaster this guy has a totally different approach to sales than I do. Then again Gary and I probably go after a different customer base because there are plenty of people out there who want to hear cheap, and plenty of contractors to fill that niche. The guy's whole approach, while humorous, doesn't seem very professional though.

jjrbus 10-23-2012 07:50 PM

The man is 77 I doubt he much cares what people think of him! Age is generally accompanied by freedom from petty concerns. I know mine started about 60.

Of the three bids I have so far he is the most expensive! $7300 vs$7000 vs $6600. He would not budge price wise. Explained to me the difference between Duration shingles and Duration TruDefinition saying be cautious of 2nds and old stock, suggested I be very careful.

Then he told me to call the local big supplier and ask them who they recommend!

So anyhow, 6/12 pitch, rip off and repair up to 2 sheets of 1/2 ply, any additional at $45 sheet material and labor. Renail and repair to code, plus wind mitigation report (important in FL). 90 ft of ridge vent.

Duration TruDefinition shingles with OC Weatherlock G peel and stick underlayment. All OC accessory's are to be used.

488 Sq Ft of white torch down on flat roof (does not remember brand name).

$7300 I do not have written estimates from other 2 roofers yet?

Opinions, observations, advice, in put and wise cracks greatly appreciated. JIm

Roofmaster417 10-23-2012 08:28 PM

Without the actual square count its difficult to figure price per square.But I can tell you this.The same square footage on a house and materials used in say Orlando or Tallahassee or even Pensacola would be slightly lower just because of the FBC for Miami/Dade.(3 stage inspection)

A $700 spread IMO is a respectable spread.Once you exceed $1000 or more should you start thinking about a scab company.

Florida has some strict codes that I very much appreciate.There are some hack roofers there but the sunshine state makes sure (for the most part) that the laws and codes are enforced and very seldom is a Florida homeowner left holding the bag for a shoddy roof build.

When I was there I seen several roofs torn off because of shoddy workmanship.I would have to say that maybe Gary wants the work because the other competing contractors have yet to submit a valid estimate.

Do contractors ever give estimates on the spot after meeting with the customer ? I have been hearing that quite a bit lately.Why waste your time meeting with them ? First impressions are key.While your with the customer you have their undivided attention.Once you leave that feeling they had for you has somewhat left with you.Now the contractor has left the door open for another contractor to take the project.

My guys and myself give either printed or pre-printed/written estimates(Printers in our trucks)when meeting our customers now and I have to be honest we have a higher percentage of closing.

But would I hire Gary ? Maybe

jjrbus 10-23-2012 09:09 PM

Thanks for the response. Sq Footage, I cannot believe I missed that!!

2690 Sq Ft of duration shingles with about 40 ft ? of valley and 90 ft? of ridge+ 488 sq foot of melt down on flat roof

The $6600 bid is from a highly recommended company that put a roof on my house 3 years ago. But that is 3 years ago and things can really change! I do not have a written bid from them yet.

Is there an easy way to make sure they are not using 2nd's or defective shingles?

Thanks much JIm

Roofmaster417 10-23-2012 09:42 PM

You can get documentation from the contractors supplier stating that they are not seconds or defective ad have full manufacture warranty as described on the packaging

If the square footage is actual without ridge and starters on a gable roof you should be around 30+ and some change and with a hip roof around 31+.

Depending on the ridge cap (Premium packs around 20ish per pack) the bids are decent IMO.I was getting $350-$400 per sq. For 5/12's and that was without any flat work.My determinations have little value in Florida markets since I am no longer there.

But,everytime a hurricane gets close to Florida my customers still call me to make sure I will be there to reroof their houses.I have them calling me from 5 counties so that might be a good thing. :thumbsup:

Grumpy 10-24-2012 09:13 AM

It is not unusual for me to be $2,000 higher than my average competitor. Infact I have come to expect that unless I am bidding against one of the larger companies, I will probably be $2,000 higher on the average sized ranch type house. But I promise I am doing $2,000 more worth of work. You have to forget the price, the price is the LAST thing you should look at. First, quality of materials and scope of work will dictate price!

I haven't seen these proposals so I can't point out the differences, but if it is not in writing it does not existing, meaning you have one proposal not three. Put them side by side. I will mention what differences my proposals have versus my competitors;

Protections, we do alot to protect the house. It makes the clean up alot easier. Ask your neighbors and friends who have gotten new roofs. The #1 complaint is dirty dirty dirty. Not our jobs, this costs money.

Old roofing nails removed and wood nails resecured. We call this tuning up the roof. Bad things can happen going over old nails. This takes a little extra time and time is money, but you get a better job. Of course we replace rotten wood, but that is an extra indicated on the proposal. FWIW, we charge more than your friend Gary does for rotten wood.

Ice shield, 6' at the gutter lines is pretty much our norm because I actually understand the code. However most guys will install 3' and get away with it. Furthermore we install ice shield in valleys, and pre-flash all areas like chimneys, skylights, pipes, walls, etc... with ice shield. You may be thinking you have no ice so what's the purpose of ice shield. These are the areas most prone to leakage so a little extra insurance is a good thing.

Felt. Most guys use 15, the minimum allowed by code. We used to use 30 Lb, and have since switched to the fiberglass reinforced felt paper. It lays smoother and qualify the customer for extended manufacturer warranty's (which I will discuss later).

Starters, we install a good quality starter. Not only at the bottom edge of the roof, but bleeder courses at the gables/rakes. Extra time extra material = extra money but also extra wind resistance for the customer.

Shingles, well there is some chit on the market that we have previously discussed. Sounds like Gary is using a good product. I'm not too familiar with OC really, we only install it upon request, but it sounds like he's using their upgraded shingle which will cost more.

Hip and ridge shingles, we use manufacturer matching starter shingles, no longer do we cut our hip and ridge from 3 tab. Not only will the hips wear away faster but they don't always match perfectly in color and then your roof looks like shat.

Ventilation, most guys repeat the mistakes of the previous roofer. We make sure that there is adequate ventilation. The installation of a few extra vents, which is required in most cases, costs a few extra bucks. But this is the difference between having a manufacturer warranty and not. It is the difference between mold in your attic or not. And in my area also affects various ice concerns such as ice damning and frozen attic condensation.

Flashings are critical to the roof. Many many guys will simply re-use old flashings or even slap them with roofing cement. We replace all old flashings as possible, 99% of the time the flashings gotta go. Not only that, but proper installation of counter flashing seems to be a lost art. We will properly step and raggle our brick counter flashing. Not only does replacing the flashing take time and material, but doing it the right way take more time, time is money. But this is what determines if your roof leaks in 5 years or 20 years. Big difference?

Clean up, because we pride ourselves on the clean up of our jobs (remember the protection) we take a little extra longer than most others with the cleanup.

Modified bitumen, as you said there is a section of flat roof. I would be installing a 3 or 4 ply modified bitumen 20-year rated system. Some guys would install a 2 or even one ply 10 year rated system. This doesn't make sense to me to install a 10 year rated flat roof with a potentially 30 year shingle roof. Does that make sense to anyone else? Also what edge metal and flashings are included, because for me I would have a metal flashing at all outside edges. Learn more about modified bitumen here:

Warranty, I include a manufacturer 25 year workmanship guarantee on all my shingle roofs. This varies in price based on the size of the job, but certainly is a minimum of a few hundred bucks. If the customers opts not to have the CertainTeed 5 star warranty, we will stand behind the shingle roof for 10 years. 5 years is the norm. Some guys may be offering 1 or 2 years, the minimum allowed by law.

But we're not done there! Oh no, we inspect every roof for completeness! This is something not every company will do, infact most will not inspect! I will inspect myself or send out another COMPETENT person to inspect the roof. I have preprinted inspection forms which look for more than 50 points on the roof. It happens occasionally that perhaps we forgot some caulking or something, but I check for clean up bushes, grass, window sills, neighbor's yard, gutters. I check for straight eaves, proper overhang at the eaves, straight rakes, proper over hang at the rakes, starters at the eaves and rakes, straight valleys, proper overlap in the valleys, valley is installed in the proper direction so to shed water (lots of valleys get installed backwards), straight hip and ridge, proper exposure on hip and ridge, ridge faces away from prevailing wind to shed wind (lots of ridges get installed backwards), straight shingle rows, proper nail placement, proper nailing pattern, proper nailing depth, flashing details, etc. etc. etc... Like I said it's more than 50 points and this inspection takes about 20-30 minutes on the average roof. Time is money! I once worked for a large company, I was the scheduling manager, they had 10 sub crews working on average each day. The owner once said to me very proudly, "If the customer complains we fix it!" But it didn't make sense to me, and still doesn't. The customer, the one who knows nothing about roofing, is the QC? They might not notice a problem with the roof unless the shingles are upside down (no offense to any home owners :) )

So you see I believe in my heart and soul that we are worth more, we are certainly doing alot more for the dollar. And having said all that we are also not the most expensive in the area, just to give you an idea of what kind of spread you can see from companies around here.

SO why did I spend my time writing all that? Well partially to inflate my ego, but also to show that not all roofs are created equal. There are alot of areas where people can cut corners. Let me say that again, ALOT of areas where people can cut corners. Look at the price of the roof LAST, look at the "Recipe", what you are actually getting first. Again, quality of materials and scope of work will dictate price.

Now as for Gary not caring what people think about him, I can appreciate that. But he better damned care what his customers think about him or he's losing alot of jobs. If he worked for me, we definitely wouldn't get along with his approach.

Grumpy 10-24-2012 09:14 AM


Originally Posted by jjrbus (Post 1036785)
Thanks for the response. Sq Footage, I cannot believe I missed that!!

2690 Sq Ft of duration shingles with about 40 ft ? of valley and 90 ft? of ridge+ 488 sq foot of melt down on flat roof

The $6600 bid is from a highly recommended company that put a roof on my house 3 years ago. But that is 3 years ago and things can really change! I do not have a written bid from them yet.

Is there an easy way to make sure they are not using 2nd's or defective shingles?

Thanks much JIm

Based on the information you provided I would be $10-12k.

We just completed an 18 square (1,800 sq ft) shingle + 3 square (300 sq ft) modified roof for $10k.

jjrbus 10-24-2012 10:14 AM

Thank you for your response. But at $12K you are not getting the job, you will have to sharpen your pencil a bit.

Unlike most people I am a bit annal about some things. The first thing I notice is when a company representative shows up and parks in the middle of my driveway, blocking it, Strike one!

just recieved 2nd bid, estimator told me it would be emailed. At the job he told me it would be $7K, the emailed written estimate is $8,300! Office and estimator must not talk to each other or office does not want job?

The last roof I had installed 3 years ago the contractors were very close in price. I picked the one that presented a highly detailed bid.

last time what impressed me most in the whole experience was the crew! They showed up and instead of parking in the middle of the drive, they asked where they should park. There was no screaming and yelling, no Hey where the $%&^'s my hammer you AH? No Boom Box's blaring out noise. A group of hardworking respectful men. Real pleasant experience.


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