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-   -   Removing Ice and Water Shield for re-roof. (http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/removing-ice-water-shield-re-roof-56823/)

Clutchcargo 11-08-2009 04:39 PM

Removing Ice and Water Shield for re-roof.
 
Here's what I learned today...
Unless you hate future roofers that you don't even know yet, DO NOT cover the entire deck with IWS.
With that said, I'm pulling back a portion of my roof to tie a new roof into. It runs up the roof about 60" from the edge. I was buzzing right along from the top down then I hit the IWS.
The roof is only 4 years old yet the shingles are stuck as if they are now part of the membrane. There was a section where I was pulling off nickel size pieces, what a total pain in the ass.
Are there any secrets to removing IWS?
TIA

tinner666 11-08-2009 05:59 PM

For repair work in a small area, that's all you can do. I believe the future is going to be: Tear off existing roof, and any decking/wood with I&W and replace with new decking and new roof.
All homeowners better paln on their next roof costing a lot more.

Too bad we dumbed things down so the I&W is the norm, rather than a back-up for something the builder or architect designed that shoud never be part of a roof system.
Many old roofs got ice damming to some degree and never had a problem.

If we could keep the roof underside cool, and no moisture to cause condensation in the attic, we could possibly get by without felt too.

meltdowndave 11-08-2009 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinner666 (Post 350658)
For repair work in a small area, that's all you can do. I believe the future is going to be: Tear off existing roof, and any decking/wood with I&W and replace with new decking and new roof.
All homeowners better paln on their next roof costing a lot more.

Call me foolish, but this is exactly why I felted *beneath* the I&W.
Of course, we did the entire roof in I&W when we tiled our roof this summer. It seemed like the best long term solution for a cold climate environment.

To do otherwise would have required removing a pristine tongue and groove cedar roof and replacing it with cardboard or whatever passes for decking in 50 years.

Clutchcargo 11-08-2009 08:07 PM

Did you put the IWS directly on the deck for the outside edge?

tinner666 11-08-2009 08:26 PM

All the 'Pro's holler that it's wrong to pre-felt. I don't, but probably should ignore the pundits and do it. I just felted over one that was pre-covered with I&W before I got there. We'll see, well, someone else will see and tell about it in a few hundred years when it 'might' have to be redone. It might not!

BIG issues will be forthcoming, I bet.

Manufacturers are saying 2-4 layers will be OK. Yeah!????????????????? Still gonna be lumpy! New jobs will require redecking all houses as part of a roof job one day.

RobQuillin 11-08-2009 10:16 PM

Just so you know, prefelting under the ice and water will void out warrenties. Also it can rot out your roof deck. I have had to replace the sheeting around the entire parimeter of a house because the moisture go under the ice and water becaues someone put felt paper under it. I understand what it is like to try to strip a roof with ice and water, however trying to make shortcuts can also create a whole different set of problems, but most importantly if could eliminate the option for the homeowner to be able to try to have a warrenty claim on possible future damage.

tinner666 11-08-2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobQuillin (Post 350780)
Just so you know, prefelting under the ice and water will void out warrenties. Also it can rot out your roof deck. I have had to replace the sheeting around the entire parimeter of a house because the moisture go under the ice and water becaues someone put felt paper under it. I understand what it is like to try to strip a roof with ice and water, however trying to make shortcuts can also create a whole different set of problems, but most importantly if could eliminate the option for the homeowner to be able to try to have a warrenty claim on possible future damage.

I know about the so-called voiding of the warranties. Why did the moisture get under it? Leaky roof? Just excessive moisture in the attic?
I can't believe the felt under the I&W caused it, all by itself. The moisture itself had to come from above or below. Just saying.

meltdowndave 11-09-2009 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobQuillin (Post 350780)
Just so you know, prefelting under the ice and water will void out warrenties. Also it can rot out your roof deck. I have had to replace the sheeting around the entire parimeter of a house because the moisture go under the ice and water becaues someone put felt paper under it. I understand what it is like to try to strip a roof with ice and water, however trying to make shortcuts can also create a whole different set of problems, but most importantly if could eliminate the option for the homeowner to be able to try to have a warrenty claim on possible future damage.

GAF's warranty made no mention of prefelting.

Instead, the closest verbiage is "it may be installed directly on the deck."

In any event, my reading of the warranty makes me think that it only covers shingled roofs, which mine isn't.

There were also some other considerations involved with prefelting.

RobQuillin 11-09-2009 08:05 AM

How warrenties work is that you have to apply the materials according to the maufacturer recommendations. This means that if you don't do it the way that they told you to, then they can use it to void out having to warrenty it.

The reason that the moistrue got under it is because ice and water is a vapor berrier. This made it so that any condensation that accumulated under the felt paper couldn't escaper. Felt paper is not a total vapor berrior so humidity and the such is able to get under it. It isn't usually an issue because it can usually escape. In this case the humidity came from the house side and couldn't escape out so it just stayed between the felt paper and the roof deck.

One think that alot of roofers don't realize is that if you are going to do a total coverage of ice and water you need to make sure that the roof is properly vented or you are going to create a moisture issue in the house because the house vapor isn't going to be able to escapr. Unlike the prefelting the moisture won't get trapped in the roof deck, but it will increase the probablilty of mold in the attic.

Ice and water is a very goood probuct, but you have to be careful how you use it.

BamBamm5144 11-11-2009 06:14 PM

Clutch, I feel like we had a conversation about this a few weeks back. Pain in the butt isnt it. Felting UNDER ice and water pretty much elimates the purposes of I+W. The only real way to get the I+W off is to replace the deck itself. Rob also just said the same thing I was trying to say but I think he worded it much clearer.

Clutchcargo 11-11-2009 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamBamm5144 (Post 351891)
Clutch, I feel like we had a conversation about this a few weeks back. Pain in the butt isnt it. Felting UNDER ice and water pretty much elimates the purposes of I+W. The only real way to get the I+W off is to replace the deck itself. Rob also just said the same thing I was trying to say but I think he worded it much clearer.

Yep, I've got a sense of Deja vu. I was all for covering the deck with IWS but I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong.
Here's something else that I've learned. You can remove it but you've got to get to it early in the morning. Once it warms up, it turns to goo... Fortunately for me, I only had to pull up about a square and half but it still took about 5-6 hours and with daylight at a premium these days, that killed a decent workday.

BamBamm5144 11-11-2009 06:49 PM

Well its good to hear you got it done. Ive had employees walk off the job because they got so irritated with it. We were lucky in that the one we did this year it didn't get much warmer than 65 so it came off easier in the morning. Either way, the use of Ice and Water shield will be adding a lot of cost to future roof replacements.

MJW 11-17-2009 08:41 PM

I&W has no warranty. Not sure what you guys are talking about.

I've done roofs where they said to put the 3rd layer of I&W on. Did, it, was done, and you can't even tell. Did it in the winter too.

The best thing to do, but most won't do it, is to I&W, then felt over it. Felt under it defeats the purpose of it sticking. It should at least stick to the fascia or drip edge.

cellophane 11-17-2009 09:39 PM

ice and water shield shouldnt be on roof unless it is under a 4:12 pitch in the first place from what i've seen. why are people installing it at anything else? or do i live too far south to see it all the time?

Scuba_Dave 11-17-2009 09:44 PM

It's required here - 2' after the edge of the inside wall


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