Re-roofing Architectural Shingles over Architectural Shingles
Oh my! My husband and I are preparing to sell our home. Built in 1990, approximately 8000 sq. ft. and still has the original roof - architectural/dimensional shingles. We started having some leaking problems on the back side of our home after several violent storms moved through the past couple of years. My husband knew someone who is a roofer, and he submitted his proposal, which we accepted. We did not get any other bids, nor did we educate ourselves about the different options which were available. The roofer submitted his proposal which called for re-roofing the house with architectural shingles. We entered into a contract with him to do the work. He completed the work about three months ago.
Our house is now ready to list - or so we thought. We hired a home inspector to come out and inspect our house - a whole home inspection, including termite and radon inspections - the inspection cost $1500.00.
The home inspector said we had a lovely home, with one big problem and a couple of small problems. Well, the one big problem is our lovely new roof. Here is what the home inspector said:
ROOF ACCESS: Walked on roof, Viewed from ground with binoculars.
ROOF TYPE: Gable, Flat/Low pitch, Conical.
ROOF COVERING MATERIALS: Composition shingles.
ROOF COVERING CONDITION: Roof cover materials are in satisfactory condition. The following
defects were viewed - architectural shingles are installed over
architectural shingles. This is against the manufacture installation
requirements & may void the warranty of the roof materials.
Recommend further evaluation by a qualified Roofing Contractor.
Exposed nails heads are improperly sealed or not sealed at all.
Improper installation is found at the ridge. A qualified roofing
contractor should be called to make repairs & corrections as needed.
FLASHING MATERIAL TYPES: Metal.
FLASHING CONDITION: The following defects were viewed - Improper installation at the
dormers is present. Exposed nail heads are not sealed. A qualified
roofing contractor should be called repairs and corrections as
There were numerous incidents of exposed nail heads on the roof and on the flashing material all around the roof.
The inspector came to our home on Saturday, and he told us of the roof problems.
We had an extra package of shingles, and we read the installation instructions, along with viewing the PDF installation instruction for Oakridge shingles. We also read the warranty information for Oakridge shingles. We could not call the Owens Corning hot line until this morning (because of the national holiday on Monday).
The installation instructions clearly state that the material must be put down on a flat surface.
The warranty information states that the warranty is void if the shingles are not put down according to the directions.
The Owens Corning rep said that dimensional shingles can not be put down over dimensional shingles. Period. Dimensional shingles = architectural shingles. I asked him to send a letter stating that. I rec'd this letter in response:
"Re: Re-Roofing Laminate Shingle Over Laminate Shingle
The Owens Corning Warranty for Roofing Shingles covers issues of the shingles from the manufacturing process. If a shingle fails because of application, acts of God or anything else listed in the “What is not Covered” section of the Warranty, the Warranty will not be honored.
If local building code allows for nail-overs, Owens Corning does not restrict the type of shingle that can be nailed over. We recommend only nailing over shingles that lay flat and have sufficient decking to allow for a second layer of roofing.
When nailing over Laminate shingles please note that the shingles may be affected by the uneven cutouts of the shingles they are being applied over. Additional notes include using longer nails to still achieve ¾” penetration to the deck, and that nesting the courses typically provides a better looking finished product.
For additional questions, please contact me at......"
Note that the letter does not state in black and white - "Do not apply dimensional shingles over dimensional shingles."
We called our roofer tonight, and he said that he applies dimensional shingles over dimensional shingles all of the time.
Any thoughts, comments, would be appreciated.
Thank you for your time!
Oops. It is common knowledge not to do that. I would suggest getting your money back. I assume this is a company?
I can't believe this guy never read the wrapper. Have the manufacturer come look at the job with the installer. Ask how the installer will remedy the situation.
This sort of stuff makes me so angry.
I am a novice at roofs. We have never had to replace a roof at any of our prior homes. This is the longest that either of us have ever lived in one place!
I just wish Owens Corning would have been black and white in their letter. The company rep - on the phone - was quite emphatic. He stated that you can not do a re-roof of architectural/dimensional shingles over A/D shingles. The letter is not as emphatic. However, how can you re-roof over a FLAT surface that is clearly not flat - especially when the instructions tell you that the surface must be flat. I am not a roofer, so maybe FLAT has a different definition that what is commonly used????
Yes, it is a company.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post. :)
You need a lawyer to get your money back.
He may do it all the time, but that doesn't make it right.
They did seem to make an allowance in their statement regarding installing new shingles over an existing laminate shingle.
"When nailing over Laminate shingles..."
Just because it "May" be done, does not mean that it is "Roofing Best Standards And Practices".
Since you are selling the home and the letter seemingly states instructions for this type of layover, in my opinion, you are in the clear regarding that issue.
NoDIY4Me, may I ask on what factor did you select this contractor? Was he the cheapest? Be honest. ;)
"Flat" in the context that Owens-Corning is using means that it doesn't have a curve to it and it doesn't have any material on it except roof decking and an approved underlayment like tar paper or ice and water shield.
The only good way to re-roof a house is to strip down to the tar paper (and usually all the way to the decking because you'll usually trash the tar paper getting the shingles off) -- the decking with tar paper over it is your "flat" surface.
The lazy way to do it is to just put up new shingles over it, but that will never pass a home inspection.
Years ago it was OK to nail-over an existing roof, up to three layers in some areas. No longer is it best practice anywhere, but is in fact prohibited by local building codes in some area.
As the letter from Owen Corning states, it comes down to a) local building codes, and b) a judgement call on the company regarding flatness of the surface. The fact that they state plainly that they do not restrict the type of shingles that you can nail-over means that you will have a very difficult time getting satisfaction from your existing roofer if you seek a legal solution, particularly if your local building codes allow for nail-overs. Your roofer can argue that he employed "acceptable practice" even if it was not "best practice" and if you ever expressed concern about cost during your conversations with him he can claim that he was doing what you wanted since removing and disposing of the existing roof is not an insignificant cost.
You're selling the house. Have someone seal the nails and put the house on the market. I can pretty much guarantee that any hit you take in sales price will be less than the legal costs of getting your money back.
The are many contractors who will do what ever they can to give the customer the cheapest price and roofing over shingles is a prime example. I always ask my customers what are they wanting to do and I always go against roofing over shingles because of this reason. It's sad how companies take advantage of homeowners without telling them all he options. The only thing you can do besides putting a new roof which will cost more because there are two layers to be removed is to get a roofer to fix the flashing and the exposed nail heads. God bless and good luck to you.
Very true 5 ash.
The first and only fight against 1/2 baked contractors and scammers is knowledge.
That knowledge is gained for homeowners from this as well as other home improvement sites on the internet.
The last thing a scammer or deceitful contractor wants is an educated homeowner.
Keeping this and other sites on the front lines against the attack on unknowing homeowners is pretty important IMO.
This is a tough pickle. Most manufacturers these days are really solid on their warranty coverage - meaning they don't cover anything if there's a hint of installation defects. It sounds like your roofer was quick and cheap. Unfortunately, as I'm sure you know by now, this is the difference in price. Did the roofer by chance provide you warranty coverage?
Based on the fact that you're already talking to Owens-Corning directly, I doubt he provided you one. Professionals can and will guarantee/warranty their work. Unfortunately I have to agree with Grumpy (and not because of the name :) ), but because he's right. If the manufacturer is not willing to cover the cost then you're only outlet is the roofer himself. If he's not going to warranty his work, then you're only remedy is to file suit.
I think you have really one main decision to make; pay more to fix the roof to a selling condition or pay to file a lawsuit and "maybe" recover some financial loss - minus what the lawyers take.
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