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-   -   Questions on proper roofing installation (http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/questions-proper-roofing-installation-100591/)

bikepilot 04-05-2011 07:09 AM

Questions on proper roofing installation
 
I just had an asphalt shingle tear-off roof installed by a local contractor, and I think it has some serious issues but need documentation. Some of the issues I may just be wrong about and may be no problem. The roof was done with Certainteed Landmark products. I am in upstate/western NY. The house was built in 1994 and the roof being replaced was the original 3-tab system.

The issues I'm concerned about are:
1) he nailed through the shingles at the top of the porch roof at the headwall. There are probably 50 or more nails in a line across the porch about 6' down from the head wall. The Certainteed SAM has contradictory information on this. The illustration shows the top course being cemented on without nails, but the text says to nail it through and then seal with mastic.
2) There is no visible flashing at this location, so I cannot readily tell if it is flashed at all. I guess I need to climb up there (I'm chicken when it comes to climbing on roofs)
3) He nailed through (visible, unsealed nailheads) the chimney step flashings. Are these supposed to be unnailed and floating?
4) The old roof was 3-tab, and the new roof is laminated. so the old chimney step flashings went down too close to the deck for the thicker new shingles. When he used them as-is, they are now bowed or buckled at the chimney bricks, with a fish-mouth type gap of nearly an inch in the middle. snow and driving rain can easily get in there. Seems like a problem?
5) There are large skylights in my cathedral ceilinged family room, and he nailed down the apron flashing over the shingles. I think he did this because it was not laying flat against the thicker new shingles.
6) He spaced out a few of the cap shingles on a small section of roof (1-2ft of ridge length) to make them fit, but the exposure between cap shingles is probably 3" linger than "normal". Is this OK?
7) In one valley, he continued the shingles down probably 3" of overhang of the drip edge so that the shingles are not supported there. i asked him hand he said "it would be fine", but I'm worried about long term cracking and sagging that could damage things. He said "just don't step on it!".
8)There is no sealant on any of the exposed nail heads anywhere
9)Can I get a pdf copy of the Certainteed SAM somewhere? I have not found it on the web.

I feel like he installed a great product, and then made a bunch of holes all over for leaks to start, essentially defeating the purpose of the project. But I cannot find meaningful, AUTHORITATIVE (meaning from certainteed or in code) documentation to support my feeling.

I welcome opinions, but what I really need is documentation. I have the final inspection by the town next week, but the inspector said these are workmanship issues and not code compliance issues, and therefore he cannot do anything. We are covered by the NYS uniiform code, which shockingly does not seem to address any of this (if it does, please help by pointing out the sections!). It DOES say that it should be installed per the manufacturers written instructions, but thus far it does not seem like certainteed explicitly addresses any of this (other than the actual need for a head wall flashing). Again please point out if any of this is addressed in the installation instructions or SAM.

Unfortunately, I think the roofer is ignorant and not sloppy. I'm pretty sure he will insist he did it right, and I will need to go to small claims court and get someone else to fix it, to the extent possible and reasonable.

seeyou 04-05-2011 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikepilot (Post 623641)
I just had an asphalt shingle tear-off roof installed by a local contractor, and I think it has some serious issues but need documentation. Some of the issues I may just be wrong about and may be no problem. The roof was done with Certainteed Landmark products. I am in upstate/western NY. The house was built in 1994 and the roof being replaced was the original 3-tab system.

The issues I'm concerned about are:
1) he nailed through the shingles at the top of the porch roof at the headwall. There are probably 50 or more nails in a line across the porch about 6' down from the head wall. The Certainteed SAM has contradictory information on this. The illustration shows the top course being cemented on without nails, but the text says to nail it through and then seal with mastic.
2) There is no visible flashing at this location, so I cannot readily tell if it is flashed at all. I guess I need to climb up there (I'm chicken when it comes to climbing on roofs)
3) He nailed through (visible, unsealed nailheads) the chimney step flashings. Are these supposed to be unnailed and floating?
4) The old roof was 3-tab, and the new roof is laminated. so the old chimney step flashings went down too close to the deck for the thicker new shingles. When he used them as-is, they are now bowed or buckled at the chimney bricks, with a fish-mouth type gap of nearly an inch in the middle. snow and driving rain can easily get in there. Seems like a problem?
5) There are large skylights in my cathedral ceilinged family room, and he nailed down the apron flashing over the shingles. I think he did this because it was not laying flat against the thicker new shingles.
6) He spaced out a few of the cap shingles on a small section of roof (1-2ft of ridge length) to make them fit, but the exposure between cap shingles is probably 3" linger than "normal". Is this OK?
7) In one valley, he continued the shingles down probably 3" of overhang of the drip edge so that the shingles are not supported there. i asked him hand he said "it would be fine", but I'm worried about long term cracking and sagging that could damage things. He said "just don't step on it!".
8)There is no sealant on any of the exposed nail heads anywhere
9)Can I get a pdf copy of the Certainteed SAM somewhere? I have not found it on the web.

I feel like he installed a great product, and then made a bunch of holes all over for leaks to start, essentially defeating the purpose of the project. But I cannot find meaningful, AUTHORITATIVE (meaning from certainteed or in code) documentation to support my feeling.

I welcome opinions, but what I really need is documentation. I have the final inspection by the town next week, but the inspector said these are workmanship issues and not code compliance issues, and therefore he cannot do anything. We are covered by the NYS uniiform code, which shockingly does not seem to address any of this (if it does, please help by pointing out the sections!). It DOES say that it should be installed per the manufacturers written instructions, but thus far it does not seem like certainteed explicitly addresses any of this (other than the actual need for a head wall flashing). Again please point out if any of this is addressed in the installation instructions or SAM.

Unfortunately, I think the roofer is ignorant and not sloppy. I'm pretty sure he will insist he did it right, and I will need to go to small claims court and get someone else to fix it, to the extent possible and reasonable.


Here's the Landmark installation manual:
http://www.certainteed.com/resources...arkInstall.pdf

1&2)He may have covered the flashing. I don't like this practice and prefer to see the apron flashing extending over the shingles. It's my SOP to nail down strips of the same metal as the apron so the nails are covered by the apron and bend the strips back up over the front edge of the apron and pop rivet them to the bottom edge of the apron. The only place I face nail is the last ridge cap.

3) I think you may be referring to the counter flashing. The step flashing is the individual ell shaped pieces installed against the roof and the side of the chimney/wall. The counter flashing is let into the masonry and over laps the step flashing. He probably nailed thru the counter flashing because he bent it out of his way to re-shingle. Not ideal, but not against the law.

4)He should have re-cut the counter flashing or replaced it.

5) see #1

6) sounds like he needs to buy one more bundle of ridge.

7) too much overhang.

8) see #1

tcleve4911 04-05-2011 08:45 AM

Hi Pilot
Sounds like a bunch of legitimate concerns.
First one that popped out was nailing the skylight flashing over the shingle.
That is supposed to be "stepped" - not surface nailed.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...C4s6VMguLLgL4g

The last course of shingles up against to house should go under the sidewall flashing with a "decorative " tab to cover the flashing.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...X7ChRU8JLY7_uo

One trick I use to cover the surface nail heads on dark shingles. Put a coating of black silicone on the nail head. While it is still wet, take a couple of scraps of your shingle, hover them over the wet dollop and rub them together face to face. The 'pebbles' will fall into the wet silicone and become the color of the rest of the roof.

Roofmaster417 04-05-2011 09:36 PM

Is it possible to post some pictures?

bikepilot 04-06-2011 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcleve4911 (Post 623687)
Hi Pilot
Sounds like a bunch of legitimate concerns.
First one that popped out was nailing the skylight flashing over the shingle.
That is supposed to be "stepped" - not surface nailed.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...C4s6VMguLLgL4g

The skylight flashing he nailed through is #2 in the picture you provided. There are multiple nails through the flashing, shingles, and decking along the line from the red #2 to and past his knee.

bikepilot 04-06-2011 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeyou (Post 623663)
Here's the Landmark installation manual:
http://www.certainteed.com/resources...arkInstall.pdf

I have reviewed this manual but it is not too much help. I was actually looking for the full SAM that Certainteed usually supplies on DVD. I found the chapter on flashings online, but it was no help on the nailing issues, even those related to the flashings.

I'm looking for something in writing from certainteed or in code that says where face nailing is and is not acceptable. I see lots of roofers saying that they strive for only 2 nails showing on the whole roof project, whereas I have dozens and dozens and dozens. But I cannot find anything authoritative saying this is incorrect, which is what I will need to get my roofer to agree to come back and do significant rework. If I can show the building inspector something in Certainteed's written instructions that the roofer has not followed, that will be the best case (short of finding it in the NYS uniform building code).

Thanks!

Roofmaster417 04-06-2011 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikepilot (Post 624534)
i have reviewed this manual but it is not too much help. I was actually looking for the full sam that certainteed usually supplies on dvd. I found the chapter on flashings online, but it was no help on the nailing issues, even those related to the flashings.

I'm looking for something in writing from certainteed or in code that says where face nailing is and is not acceptable. I see lots of roofers saying that they strive for only 2 nails showing on the whole roof project, whereas i have dozens and dozens and dozens. But i cannot find anything authoritative saying this is incorrect, which is what i will need to get my roofer to agree to come back and do significant rework. If i can show the building inspector something in certainteed's written instructions that the roofer has not followed, that will be the best case (short of finding it in the nys uniform building code).

Thanks!


could you post a couple pix?

bikepilot 04-07-2011 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roofmaster417 (Post 624706)
could you post a couple pix?

I will post some pics Saturday AM.

Thanks everyone for helping. I'm not sleeping nights worrying about this.

tcleve4911 04-08-2011 07:17 AM

http://www.asphaltroofing.org/pdf/tb_221.pdf

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/PDF/Free/021172084.pdf

bikepilot 04-09-2011 09:27 AM

Some pics...
 
A little coverup with no cement, and adding an extra layer of thickness:
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1...pdetail.th.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/786...ocement.th.jpg

More fine workmanship:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1305/misc1q.th.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/931/misc2u.th.jpg

The nailing at the head wall. There is flashing under the top course of shingles:

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8...hdetail.th.jpg

Check out the ridge cap spacing:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7...pacing2.th.jpg

Skylight Flashing issues:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7...htapron.th.jpgFace nailing and bulging of flashing
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/732...ndetail.th.jpg
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3...ckedoff.th.jpg(Flashing chopped off)
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2...ilright.th.jpg

bikepilot 04-09-2011 09:30 AM

Chimney Flashing Issues:
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/8...eyapron.th.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2...detail1.th.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9887/...detail2.th.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/891...detail3.th.jpg

OldNBroken 04-09-2011 09:44 AM

Well, based on those pictures I would say your roofer did know what he was doing. One example is the weave of the bottom courses on your valley. Not many roofers take the time to do it and it is the most watertight way to start a cut valley. As far as his valley cut goes and other cut details, could have been better but it is upside the valley 1-2" and looks to be straight. Can't tell if he clipped the tops or not.

Unfortunately the majority of roofers face-nail their walls like that. It's not wrong, I just don't like the look so I don't allow it.

The skylight apron it looks like he was going to trim it in an attempt to make it look better then stopped. At least it looks installed correctly and shouldn't cause any issues.

Can't see clearly but it looks like the ridge is properly spaced.

In my opinion I would say by those pictures you got an acceptable installation from someone who does know what they are doing. Much better than a lot of them we see from posters on here.

Edit: okay, didn't see you post the chimney pictures before I posted this. That flashing looks like ass. Can you take a picture farther away showing the whole thing?

seeyou 04-09-2011 09:57 AM

That flashing looks like ass.

I was gonna say something worse. I see a lot of this locally. Good shingler - bad flasher.

bikepilot 04-09-2011 07:34 PM

Here are a couple more chimney pics:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/3...erview1.th.jpg
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6...erview2.th.jpg

I guess what I don't get is this: Can I go up on my new roof, drive nails anywhere I like without sealing them (through flashing, all shingle layers, and decking), and leave the roof unaffected? It seems like that COMPLETELY defeats the whole layering and "gravity" principle that I thought underpinned roofing for centuries? How does that differ from what he has done?

BikePilot

bikepilot 04-09-2011 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeyou (Post 626054)
That flashing looks like ass.

I was gonna say something worse. I see a lot of this locally. Good shingler - bad flasher.

Note that as far as I can tell, he did not create or add or even adapt a single flashing - he just re-used what was there (with the exception of the lower left of 1 of the 3 skylights). The problem is that in going from a inches-sized 3 tab to a metric sized laminated shingle, the old flashings don't seem to be ideally bent or sized - and he did not do anything about it.

BikePilot


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