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-   -   Questions about consequences of high nailing shingles (http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/questions-about-consequences-high-nailing-shingles-191889/)

reteng 12-11-2013 02:49 PM

Questions about consequences of high nailing shingles
 
Hello folks,

I'm looking for some expertise concerning high nailing of shingles during installation.

I have a home that has a large portion (approx 35%) of shingles that were nailed above the nailing strip. This has caused me much trouble during the last 5 years. The shingles are GAF Timberline HD Prestique 30.

What I am looking for is thoughts (answers) to a couple of very specific questions.

1. If a shingle is nailed above the nailing strip and goes through one layer only of the laminated shingle, is it more likely that the shingle will have more difficulty sealing properly or not at all?

It is my reasoning that the nail would not pull the shingle down with the same force that it would have going through two layers of shingle, plus the fact that the shingle below is creating a void between the top shingle and the roof surface. When the nail is driven down it stretches/tears the shingle on the downhill side of the nail head. This would be similar with over-driving the nail. I hope this makes sense to who ever is reading this!:)

2. If the shingle is nailed above the nailing strip (same as above) can normal winds eventually work the shingle enough to break the seal.

My thought about this situation is wind can work its way under any shingle and create an upward force even if a shingle has sealed properly. A buffeting action plus the pressure could eventually cause the shingle to tear at the nail head which in turn could cause the seal to break and the shingle to lift.

What do you think?

Thank you

Windows on Wash 12-11-2013 03:16 PM

1. Yes. Also more likely that is will rip out in entirety as it is only fastened via one set of nails.

2. Yes.

High nailed roofs are doomed to failure in a majority of the cases.

reteng 12-11-2013 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windows on Wash (Post 1277375)
1. Yes. Also more likely that is will rip out in entirety as it is only fastened via one set of nails.

2. Yes.

High nailed roofs are doomed to failure in a majority of the cases.

Thanks. Did you agree with my wind theory? Sounds perfectly logical to me. I did know about he nails being half as many as required. I've had a lot of blow offs.

I'm asking these questions because I may be going into arbitration with BBB in my area because of a complaint I filed against local roofer who has not been cooperative. This is my first roofing nightmare in my 70 years on this earth:( I just need a good argument about failed sealing strips.

joecaption 12-11-2013 03:48 PM

Depending on the pitch if it's steep and the shingles get hot the top layer can slide down.
Ever seen a mansard style roof that looks like all the shingles are coming apart and sliding down the roof?
The nailing pattern is written right on the packaging, there's a line right on the shingles, and the directions are on line. There no excuse they where not nailed in the right place.
Just go on line and look up the install directions and print them out. Take some pictures of how it was done on your roof.
Taking a picture a missing shingle is not going to do much good, need one showing the nailing pattern.
Should have been 4 nails per shingle, 6 for a high wind area.
It would be interesting to see some pictures, if they did that roofing 101 thing wrong I'd bet there's other things.
Amount of over hang, no ice and water shield, no starter strip, exposed nails.

reteng 12-11-2013 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecaption (Post 1277391)
Depending on the pitch if it's steep and the shingles get hot the top layer can slide down.
Ever seen a mansard style roof that looks like all the shingles are coming apart and sliding down the roof?
The nailing pattern is written right on the packaging, there's a line right on the shingles, and the directions are on line. There no excuse they where not nailed in the right place.
Why are you asking?

Thanks Joe.
See post above for answer as to why. The slope on my roof where the shingles are failing is 10/12 and 12/12

joecaption 12-11-2013 03:59 PM

We were typing at the same time.

reteng 12-11-2013 04:02 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by joecaption (Post 1277391)
Take some pictures of how it was done on your roof.
Taking a picture a missing shingle is not going to do much good, need one showing the nailing pattern.
Should have been 4 nails per shingle, 6 for a high wind area.
It would be interesting to see some pictures, if they did that roofing 101 thing wrong I'd bet there's other things.
Amount of over hang, no ice and water shield, no starter strip, exposed nails.

Here are a couple of photos. You can see a LOT of problems!

Windows on Wash 12-11-2013 04:22 PM

Sorry...time for a tear off my friend.

joecaption 12-11-2013 04:26 PM

Guess these really hard to read directions must have eluded him.
http://www.gaf.com/Residential_Roofi...glish_Only.PDF

reteng 12-11-2013 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windows on Wash (Post 1277412)
Sorry...time for a tear off my friend.

I agree. In fact I have already had a trusted roofer give me a price to do a tear off and re-roof a 2000 square foot area. The bad nailing job was done by one man. The was another man nailing on the other side of the house and I've never had a problem back there. This is a $5000 expense that I should not have to pay for, thus my complaint to the BBB.

My 1-1/2 year old house was destroyed by a tornado in January 2008 and now I get to deal with this.

The roofer I'm going to use has already roofed a barn I built and did a great job. His man hand nails the shingles in lieu of a gun.:thumbsup:

joecaption 12-11-2013 04:43 PM

Nothing wrong with a nail gun, just have to know how to use it.

reteng 12-11-2013 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecaption (Post 1277425)
Nothing wrong with a nail gun, just have to know how to use it.

Agreed, but the typical roofing crews that I've see around here...........!

My trusted roofer and I talked about the guns and here is why he doesn't like them. You may have part of a roof in the sun and parts of the roof in the shade. The shingles are therefore relatively soft and hard in places. The gun may work fine (be set properly for hard) and then overdrive the nail where the shingle is softer. Always adjusting the gun which presents a problem when you have a kid that is just thinking about "beer30". Also, you are constantly driving nails in hard and soft area of the wood roof decking. Hand nailing gives much better control is what he likes about it. I have to say that I like that also.

Gymschu 12-11-2013 05:16 PM

Your pics amaze me…………..it takes just as much effort (in your case anyway) to do it wrong so why not do it right and be done with it? Like Joe said, the instructions are on EACH bundle of shingles. There's just no excuse for doing it wrong like that roofer did. I've done several roofs as a DIYer and I always read the instructions so as not to void a warranty. So sorry this happened to you……..it's just not right.

Gary in WA 12-11-2013 06:19 PM

Judging by the last picture, the nail placement may be too high; 5-3/4"----6-1/4" up from bottom of shingle, did you measure them?

The nail head size looks small in the picture, did you measure them?

" FASTENERS: Use only zinc-coated steel or aluminum, 10-12 gauge, barbed, deformed, or smooth shank roofing nails with heads 3/8" (10 mm) to 7/16" (12 mm) in diameter. Fasteners should be long enough to penetrate at least 3/4" (19 mm) into wood decks or just through the plywood decks. Fasteners must be driven flush with the surface of the shingle. Overdriving will damage the shingle. Raised fasteners will interfere with the sealing of the shingles and can back out"



IMHO, they appear to be set too deep for which there is no excuse as don't most roofing guns limit height of pin to set depth from a surface; hard or soft makes no difference? Either the depth adjustment wasn't set/working/missing with air pressure set too high.

https://ams.confex.com/ams/29Hurrica...per_167533.htm


Gary

oh'mike 12-11-2013 06:40 PM

Is the BBB the place to go for a settlement?

I would think small claims court would be the proper spot---I don't think the BBB has any legal powers what so ever.


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