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New home roofing rippling/deflection issue

16K views 22 replies 9 participants last post by  jsbuilders 
#1 · (Edited)
My Tennessee home was started in May 2012 and the roof was put on in late June. We moved into the house March 2013. The shingles or sheathing on the homes roof is lifting /deflecting causing ripples in the roof. This was noticed for the first time a couple of months after the singles were installed.

The builder was made aware of this issue and had the roofer who framed the house and installed the shingles remove and look at a small section. I am not sure the section removed was an area that was lifting. I have looked in the attic at the sheathing and nothing really jumped out at me, but I did not spend a lot of time trying to analyze the problem either. Here is the builder’s email that I requested from him to address the issue “On 11-19-12 We had disassembled a s section of the shingle roofing to investigate the reason causing the shingles being raised up. We also had tested the rafters and OSB for moister content inside the attic space. The OSB roof sheathing had 8-8.5% of moister content, the rafters- 9-9.5%. Based on our testing and research we concluded that certain rafters deflected out temporarily during extreme whether temperature change, resulting in visible shingle deflection. On 11-15-12 I emailed the pictures to the manufacturing rep. there was no defect find in the shingle. Currently the framing and the shingles a visibly appropriately flat. We do not anticipate any future similar issues.”

Since the memo from the builder was written explaining his findings and stating that he did not believe it would happen again, we have visibly seen and have taken pictures on at least 4 occasions of the defection. I believe the raised shingles are always there, but not always as visible based on the sunlight shining on the roof. If this site allows me I will add pictures. I even have a picture of snow on the roof, showing it did not stick to the roof in the areas that have the most visible deflection. The pictures showing the roof deflection and the roof picture showing areas without snow look like they would be close to overlaying on each other.

I believe whatever the roof issue is it must have an impact on the home reliability, whether it would be the roof shingle life, sheathing life, rafter life or as it seems in the picture of snow on the roof, heat loss through the roof. What do you suggest I do about this? Do I need to have an expert evaluate this, where do you find that person? I do not want to lose money down the road to fix the roof; I paid a lot of money to have this home built correctly. If I do nothing to fix the roof now and I sell the home, the new owner would sue me for a new roof if I do not make him aware of the issue. If I tell him of the issue, he will offer me less money for house believing there is a problem with the roof and he will have to spend the money to fix it. It seems to me my builder needs to fix the roof or I should be compensated money back for potential losses down the road that I may incur. At this time the builder has not offered to do either and it seems the out of sight out of mind analogy applies to him. It’s a little embarrassing when friends come over to see our new home and they notice the roof. I have no real explanation I can only tell them that the builder says it’s not a problem, but astatically the roof looks bad.

FYI- the sheathing on this roof is silver backed solar sheathing; it did set out in heavy rains prior to installation. The roofing paper also got wet and wrinkled up, dried and shrunk again while it was on the roof. It was installed several days before the shingles were installed. It was wrinkled again towards the top of the roof the day the shingles were installed as the night before we had a light rain. The lower part of the roof had plenty of sunshine and the paper was not wrinkled as the shingles were installed, but at the top of the roof the paper was still wrinkled when shingles were installed.

Thank You for your help.
 

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#3 · (Edited)
"Based on our testing and research we concluded that certain rafters deflected out temporarily during extreme whether temperature change, resulting in visible shingle deflection."

Visable shingle deflection????

Never heard of such an animal. The cause of what you have there is probably one or more of the following:

1. Sheathing not properly spaced during installation. Do you see clips between sheets of sheathing from below? Sheathing must be spaced minimum 1/8 inch on all sides during installation. Is the shething an APA rated panel? What is the Type, Thickness, and what is the spacing of the trusses?

2. Shingles were installed over wet, buckled felt.

I always specify minimum 5 ply 19/32 Fir plywood for its dimensional stability. You wont see that on many residential jobs, and that is why you see so many problems in the roofs of residential construction. People do not understand that the IBC is a life safety code, not an aesthetics code. The IBC is concerned that your foot wont go through it, they dont care if it looks like S**T :eek:
 
#20 ·
your not the first person to use that has had problems with that solarboard- Norbord. It looks like it has delmanated. That is why I hate being the first to try something new in construction. Let other people try it out and see if it works or not. for me 5/8th five ply CDX is all i would use for roof sheathing. if you want to find out if it has delamenated go in to your attic and push against the sheathing if it feels squishy you have sheathing that the glues have failed.
 
#2 ·
If it was mine I start out with my 6' level up the the attic to just check to see if all the rafters are even. Even a piece of brick string pulled tight would work.
If the even then I'd be ripping off some shingles.
 
#8 ·
Thanks everyone for you responses. To answer some of the questions you have. 1) The sheathing is solorbord-Norbord, it is 7/16" thick and it is "APA" rated. The rafters are on 24" centers.
2) I went into the attic to get a closer look. The rafters look like the problem to me. I laid a 4' level on 3 joists at a time, as I could see some unevenness when eyeing down the rafters from one end to the other. All are off to some degree which would be expected but some are off as much as a 1/2". I can rock the level easily if I center the level on lowest of the 3 joists. See the pictures I added to the post.
3) I also noticed that the rafters as they rest against the (not sure my terminology is correct) ridge beam at the very top peak of the house which runs the full length of the home are not flush against the ridge beam. (See pictures) They tend to touch the ridge beam at the very top, but then drifts away from the ridge beam with a taper gap towards the bottom of the beam. In other words the cut is not at the correct angle so it is not flush against the ridge beam. Without the cuts being accurate and fitting flush against the ridge board is probably why I am finding the unevenness between each rafter when I laid a level between them. All the rafter ends were cut by hand and very few fit flush.
Please let me know what you would suggest I do, should I hire an expert to look at this? Should the builder hire the non-biased expert? Should the builder fix this issue? Is there heat loss through the roof based on observing the snow picture? As I mentioned I do not want to get stuck with the repairing the roof later.
 
#12 · (Edited)
are not flush against the ridge beam. (See pictures) They tend to touch the ridge beam at the very top, but then drifts away from the ridge beam with a taper gap towards the bottom of the beam.
I have five questions ......

what is the size of the rafters?

what is the distance from one side to the other where the rafters attach to either the outside walls or attic floor? (width of roof span)

is there any 2x4/2x6 members attached from the side of one rafter to the opposing rafter under the ridge beam? If you look down the ridge it would look like the letter A, the member I'm asking about would be the straight part of the letter. if there are, how often are they?

is there an attic floor or is the ceiling vaulted/cathedral?

what is the size of the ridge beam?
 
#13 ·
Was that picture of the buckled felt there before, or did I just miss it? This is a severely screwed up roof installation if that's the way they installed ice dams and went over wet felt.
 
#17 ·
I do not know what your building code is, so any comments as to code requirements would be based upon my knowledge of the International Residential Code (IRC), which is commonly used as the basis for local codes. you would have to verify your code requirements with the building department.

typically when rafters connect to either a ridge board, or in your case a ridge beam there is to be an uplift connection. This is a code requirement under the IRC. This can be accomplished by one of two standard methods.

1. use wooden members that are attached to the sides of opposing rafters. these are normally found in the upper 1/3 of rafters length and are commonly referred to as collar ties.
2. use of a metal tie strap applied over the roof sheathing that connect opposing rafters together. When the shingles on it may be difficult to determine if they were installed or not.

This connection is used to prevent the rafters from pulling away from the ridge board or beam, which seems to be something you have described. Of course they could have been off making their plumb cuts.

it sounds like the ridge beam was used because of the dormers, unequal roof pitches and ceiling configuration. When dormers are installed (depending on their width) you loose opposing rafters and need a beam to balance the roof loads or there will be issues with the ridge sagging.

I would recommend based upon what you've shown and commented on that you seek the services of a professional engineer that specializes in wood frame construction and have them evaluate your existing construction. They can determine if you have any code deficiencies (based upon your code requirements) and the best course of action to take to fix/repair them. I know if I were in your situation I'd go this course.

I wish I had better news, or could provide a another solution, but I think this would be the prudent thing to do.

Good luck and keep us posted. Maybe other members will have other suggestions.
 
#19 ·
I do not know what your building code is, so any comments as to code requirements would be based upon my knowledge of the International Residential Code (IRC), which is commonly used as the basis for local codes. you would have to verify your code requirements with the building department.

typically when rafters connect to either a ridge board, or in your case a ridge beam there is to be an uplift connection. This is a code requirement under the IRC. This can be accomplished by one of two standard methods.

1. use wooden members that are attached to the sides of opposing rafters. these are normally found in the upper 1/3 of rafters length and are commonly referred to as collar ties.
2. use of a metal tie strap applied over the roof sheathing that connect opposing rafters together. When the shingles on it may be difficult to determine if they were installed or not.

This connection is used to prevent the rafters from pulling away from the ridge board or beam, which seems to be something you have described. Of course they could have been off making their plumb cuts.

it sounds like the ridge beam was used because of the dormers, unequal roof pitches and ceiling configuration. When dormers are installed (depending on their width) you loose opposing rafters and need a beam to balance the roof loads or there will be issues with the ridge sagging.

I would recommend based upon what you've shown and commented on that you seek the services of a professional engineer that specializes in wood frame construction and have them evaluate your existing construction. They can determine if you have any code deficiencies (based upon your code requirements) and the best course of action to take to fix/repair them. I know if I were in your situation I'd go this course.

I wish I had better news, or could provide a another solution, but I think this would be the prudent thing to do.

Good luck and keep us posted. Maybe other members will have other suggestions.
Thank You for your help: Neither application 1 or 2 was used ,I was living on site as the home was built so I was able to see most of the build take place and I took pictures throughout the build. The house was inspected, but to what extent on framing I am not sure.

One more question if you care to answer. I mentioned to the builder on a few occasions that the roof is still rippling even after he wrote the memo which said it would not. I have not forced the issue and hoped he would become pro-active and look into it. As I mentioned in my initial post he feels the house is completed and since he does not live here out of sight out of mind applies.
Do you feel that the framing issues 1 and 2 that you listed are the reasons for the rippling or it is just not the correct way to frame? If 1 and 2 are the reasons and code in my area says they do not have to be done, am I stuck with the rippling.
Should I be the one that hires the expert (and the one to pay him/her) or should I tell the builder, you need to hire a non-biased expert?
Even if an expert would say it is only aesthetical not structural I still believe I will lose money down the road when I sell the home. I have never seen a home with this problem before including those built by my builder that I went and looked at. Something must be wrong.
Just looking for suggestions on how to approach this issue that gives me the best shot at getting the problem resolved.
Thanks again.
 
#21 · (Edited)
if this connection does not hold it could be the cause of your rafter ends not being flush against the ridge. movement of the rafters could cause a ripple effect in my opinion, however my opinion does not really count thus the reason for recommending a professional engineer from your area.

I myself would feel a lot better having an engineer of my choosing over the builders. Professional engineers are bound by a code of ethics so that part does not concern me, their knowledge and experience in evaluating structures does. As no two builders are equal, neither are engineers.

You could discuss this with the builder but from comments it seems he does not believe it is caused by anything he did so I'm not sure what the motivation would be on his part. If the engineer finds deficiencies then I'd tell the builder he needs to pay for the engineer and fix his mistakes. In my state builders are licensed by the state and are subject to answer for consumer complaints. I do not know about your state.

Tough situation to be in. I do feel for you.

You could call and get estimates for the engineer's service, chances are they would have to come to to site to determine an estimate. If it were my home I wouldn't wait around, but them I'm usually a wimp when it comes to the money I spend on things.

Good luck.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Prior to about 1920 full 1 inch thick dimensional lumber was generally used for roof sheathing. From 1920 till about 1952, 3/4 inch Tongue and groove fir was used generally with 2 x 8 support at 16 inches on center After this 3/4 inch plywood was used. Then we went to trusses at 24 inches on center with minimum 1/2 inch CDX. Now one poster here says that he regularly uses 3/8 plywood supported at 24 inches on center.

Whats next, reinforced toilet paper supported at 32 inches on center by straws? :eek:

And we wonder why the roofs are buckling and look like crap. What a freakin joke!

As Gary said in a previous post, just because you can do it, does not mean you should do it. People have a very serious misconception about codes. They think they are OK with codes. Codes are the absolute minimum you can get away with, and have nothing to do with aesthetics.

3/8 inch might support your weight, but it is probably going to buckle, and its ability to retain nails is crap.

Local agencies that blindly follow the IBC are just plain ignorant.

This poor poster now has a house that looks like crap due to an inadequately specified and installed roof.
 
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