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Old 06-09-2009, 11:00 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
Aluminum is attacked by Alkali Hydroxides contained in wet lime mortar, portland cement, and concrete, resulting in increasing PH values and that would then follow, that if a masonry chimney were to be
"Re-Wetted" from future rains, the corrosiveness of the contact can be reinitiated over and over again.

That is why I ensure a separation membrane of the Ice and Water Shield between any aluminum flashings and masonry structures.

Ed

Ahh, interesting. Hopefully I'll be alright if I skip that step. Other than than, does anything need to go in between the flashing and the chimney to prevent leaks? Is the flashing physically attached to the chimney or does it just rest against it?

Gracias.

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:18 AM   #17
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As a home owner installing a roof on your personal home, you are not bound by law to follow nor meet OSHA rules & regulations,
but I can not, will not comment on how to work a steeper roof with only one set of roof jacks set up across the bottom, thus I strongly suggest spending the additional monies for more roof jacks.
Find your local shingle supply house, maybe an ABC Supply, they will normally have better deals price wize on roof jacks, etc., than what lowes will.
Just a couple more for questions for you...should be starting tomorrow morning if all goes as planned.

I think I will go ahead and purchase another few sets of roof jacks. $80 or so is nothing compared to what could happen. You said to attach with 16p spikes? These are different from 16d common nails?

For the anchors for the roofing harness, would several 3" drywall screws be sufficient to hold it in? The instructions say to use #8 2" wood screws, but in my experience, those can snap off if a proper pilot hole is not drilled. Drywall screws, on the other hand, always go right in.

Do the vertical starter strips on the rake edges need to overlap each other by 5" or so?

Are the drips nailed on from the top (shingle side) or from the side, or both?

I like your idea of doing one 4' strip at a time, but it seems like that would make the tear off above more difficult. I would have nails and old shingles sliding down and getting on my new shingles and/or felt paper, possibly tearing the felt paper if there aren't shingles covering it. Or would it not be much of an issue?

Thanks again!

Last edited by dc4nomore; 06-09-2009 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:36 AM   #18
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Screws do not have the shear strength as nails.

Use 16 d nails for the bracket for the safety harness and also the roof cleats or brackets. 2" x 6" are the safest and easiest to maneuver around the roof. Do not use the 2" x 4"s. They are unsafe, especially if there is a knot in the lumber.

Get the safety harness that goes around your legs and your upper torso around your shoulders and not one that is just a belt harness.

I want to compliment Sly for the very comprehensive responses made in this thread so far and the accurateness of them also.

Ed
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:56 AM   #19
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I've seen drywall & other screws snap fairly easily

I need to add a good safety harness to my tool supply
I used a belt only harness roofing the front of my addition
But I need to roof the back & then (wood) shingle the side - 3 floors

Is there a specific Mfg or design that is better?
I've seen the D-rings at the sides. and others have them in the middle - front & back




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Old 06-09-2009, 12:17 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
Screws do not have the shear strength as nails.

Use 16 d nails for the bracket for the safety harness and also the roof cleats or brackets. 2" x 6" are the safest and easiest to maneuver around the roof. Do not use the 2" x 4"s. They are unsafe, especially if there is a knot in the lumber.

Get the safety harness that goes around your legs and your upper torso around your shoulders and not one that is just a belt harness.

I want to compliment Sly for the very comprehensive responses made in this thread so far and the accurateness of them also.

Ed
I picked up a full 5-point safety harness "kit" made by AO Safety at Lowe's for $128.

The brackets I bought accept 2x6's, which I plan to use. While I agree with you that screws do not have near the same shear strength as nails, they do have more "pull out" resistance. I definitely plan to use nails for the roof jack brackets, which would experience a huge shear stress if they suddenly had to stop a falling person, hence the need for the stronger nails.

But as far as the roof anchor for the harness placed at the peak of the roof, it seems that if I were to fall, the rope would tend to pull the anchor off of the roof, rather than give a shearing sideways force. Nails might pull out too easily. The directions for the harness also specify screws, and the directions for the roof jacks specify nails, which made sense to me.

I am obviously not an experienced roofer, and am not saying I know best. That is just my engineering side examining the forces that will be at play if something were to happen, and trying to do what seems the safest to me. Feel free to correct me if my reasoning is off.

And yes, kudos to Slyfox. He has helped me out tremendously thus far.

Last edited by dc4nomore; 06-09-2009 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:34 PM   #21
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Nope, follow the Manufacturers Recommendations.

Remember though, that the pull on the hold down bracket does not exert an upward force, but rather a shearing side-ways force, when the person slips and falls, resulting in a sharp and sudden tug through the rope to the clamp attached to the fasteners holding the clamping bracket in place.

Ed

















P.S.
Plus, if you do follow the manufacturers recommendations and something does happen, (God Forbid), then you would have additional recourse against the, or at least your surving family members would.




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Old 06-10-2009, 06:27 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dc4nomore View Post
Just a couple more for questions for you...should be starting tomorrow morning if all goes as planned.

I think I will go ahead and purchase another few sets of roof jacks. $80 or so is nothing compared to what could happen. You said to attach with 16p spikes? These are different from 16d common nails?

No, I was referring to the 16D.

For the anchors for the roofing harness, would several 3" drywall screws be sufficient to hold it in? The instructions say to use #8 2" wood screws, but in my experience, those can snap off if a proper pilot hole is not drilled. Drywall screws, on the other hand, always go right in.

I have only used on style of harness, purchased at ABC Supply,
and they required being anchored in with nails/spikes, thus I'm not sure what screws would be best in that situation.


Do the vertical starter strips on the rake edges need to overlap each other by 5" or so?

No, the rake starters simply butt together, you don't want any lap at all.

Are the drips nailed on from the top (shingle side) or from the side, or both?

Just the top 'shingle side', place one fastener in either end, one dead center, than one roughly center of each of those.
Thus 5 fasteners per piece of drip.


I like your idea of doing one 4' strip at a time, but it seems like that would make the tear off above more difficult. I would have nails and old shingles sliding down and getting on my new shingles and/or felt paper, possibly tearing the felt paper if there aren't shingles covering it. Or would it not be much of an issue?

I have never torn off that way, was simply thinking of the safest way of answering your question.

Set your jacks up into the existing shingles, set another as high as you can comfortably reach 'a little stretch of a reach', and repeat that until you can reach the ridge 'top', than tear off downward too the set of jacks, clean, install felt, repeat downward to next set of jacks.


My main concern with my answers is safety, the less you walk on the old or new felt the safer you will be, me and my guys could rip the existing roof down with nothing but a few toe boards, than install jacks as we are installing the new shingles, but we have been doing this day in and day out for years.

Thanks again!
Your welcome.
Hope all goe's well Sir.
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Old 06-10-2009, 06:57 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
Nope, follow the Manufacturers Recommendations.

Remember though, that the pull on the hold down bracket does not exert an upward force, but rather a shearing side-ways force, when the person slips and falls, resulting in a sharp and sudden tug through the rope to the clamp attached to the fasteners holding the clamping bracket in place.

Ed
Yeah I guess the rope would be pulling down along the slope of the roof, which would give it that sideways force. I'll just give it a lot of screws. There are 16 holes on each side of the bracket, and the instructions say to put a screw in each one of them!
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Old 06-10-2009, 07:03 AM   #24
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Let us know how it goes.

If we don't hear back from ya later on, we'll know not to use screws. J/K

Good luck and give 'er.............
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Old 06-10-2009, 07:19 AM   #25
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Your welcome.
Hope all goes well Sir.
It is raining right now so it doesn't look like I'll be starting this today. Actually it is supposed to rain tomorrow as well so I may not be able to start until Friday.

I take it from your response that the tar paper is rather slippery/difficult to walk on?

To clarify on installing the box vents, I would wait until my bottom course of shingles is up to where the box vent would go. Then cut the hole and install the vent so that it overlaps the shingles, then install the shingles along the sides and above so that they are on top of the edges of the box vent? Right?

The only thing I'm still a little unsure of is the chimney step flashing. Should I go with pre-bent or not? Also, it looks like I need two longer pieces of flashing for the top and bottom (horizontal) edges of the chimney, is that right? Does the flashing need to be nailed/screwed to the brick, or only nailed to the roof, with the exposed edge on the chimney then being caulked? And last, I've read of adding a piece that goes behind the upper most part of the chimney, to prevent water from pooling up there. Is this something I should do?

Thanks a million!
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:34 AM   #26
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It is raining right now so it doesn't look like I'll be starting this today. Actually it is supposed to rain tomorrow as well so I may not be able to start until Friday.

I take it from your response that the tar paper is rather slippery/difficult to walk on?

Felt paper is not real slippery, but, stepping on a loose piece of felt or a poorly fastened lap is like stepping on ice on a side walk but even worse because your not on flat ground, your on a angled roof.

To clarify on installing the box vents, I would wait until my bottom course of shingles is up to where the box vent would go. Then cut the hole and install the vent so that it overlaps the shingles, then install the shingles along the sides and above so that they are on top of the edges of the box vent? Right?

Yes, the vent should set to where the bottom of it covers the nail 'fastener' strip on the shingle, than nailed on both top corners and as low on the two bottom corners as possible, than the ones on the side and across the top.
There will be some of the vent left exposed at the bottom, sometimes it's a 1/2" or so, some times it's a few inches,
Less is better.

The only thing I'm still a little unsure of is the chimney step flashing. Should I go with pre-bent or not? Also, it looks like I need two longer pieces of flashing for the top and bottom (horizontal) edges of the chimney, is that right? Does the flashing need to be nailed/screwed to the brick, or only nailed to the roof, with the exposed edge on the chimney then being caulked? And last, I've read of adding a piece that goes behind the upper most part of the chimney, to prevent water from pooling up there. Is this something I should do?

As you come to the chimney with your shingles run them until the nailer strip is with in a couple of inches of the face 'bottom end' of the chimney,
than install an apron flashing "an L shape piece of metal" that will set roughly 4" on the roof deck and roughly 4" up the side on the bricks
" the L flashing should be roughly 8" longer than the chimney is wide"
and you cut it to rap around the corner,
than when your going up the sides you will cut your shingle straight down allowing roughly a 1/4" of space between the end of your cut and the wall/chimney side, than install a piece of step flashing " first piece overlaps the L flashing" nailing the metal only to the roof deck and the same with the L flashing,
you keep going up the side 'one shingle - one flashing' until you get to the point in which you have to cut the tabbed portion of the shingle off and leave the top portion on going around the top back of the chimney,
than you will need to install another piece of L flashing but this piece will be larger, roughly 8" of it going up the back side of the chimney 'on the brick' and no less than 12" of it on the roof deck and it should have roughly 2" extending out past both sides of the chimney and tucked tight against the brick, again you only nail it into the roof deck, not the brick and do not cut the L flashing at the top of the chimney to rap around the side like at the bottom, just let it extend straight out.
You want -0- nails in the L flashing field, nail roughly 1" in from the edges.
Run a bead of roof cement across the L flashing you installed at the top of the chimney 'covering the fasteners' than place a starter strip across the flashing, on the roof deck part, than continue running your shingles.

After all sub flashing's ' step and L flashing' have been installed than you will need to install your counter flashing, which will be fastened into the brick only and caulked.

Thanks a million!
I'll type more on counter flashing later, you want to make sure I'm clear on the sub flashing first.
Tools for a solid counter flashing:
Hand held grinder to cut into the brick,
Mason nails, probably 1 1/4",
Caulking, metal caulking, not gutter sealant or roof cement.
A heavy hammer, framing hammers work well, but any 18 0z or heavier hammer is fine.

Keep in mind my mentioning the nailer strip on the shingles, all your fasteners in the field should be on that line.

Only open up a bundle or two of shingles at a time and install all opened shingles before taking a break or quitting for the day.
Shingles left opened in the heat of the day will become many times hotter than when there in the wrapper and be more prone to scarring as your working on them, plus possibly stick together before installed.

Keep your work area cleaned all the time, your work area is the roof deck, the roof jack's n planks and the area of the ground around the feet of your ladder.


P.S It's better to have to wait a month to get good weather, than to get half way through your project and get caught in storms with unprotected roof deck.
Plus don't forget about the option of calling a day labor service, I have used them before when we needed additional short term helpers and have ended up with some pretty decent workers on more than one occasion.
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Old 06-10-2009, 02:27 PM   #27
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I'll type more on counter flashing later, you want to make sure I'm clear on the sub flashing first.
Tools for a solid counter flashing:
Hand held grinder to cut into the brick,
Mason nails, probably 1 1/4",
Caulking, metal caulking, not gutter sealant or roof cement.
A heavy hammer, framing hammers work well, but any 18 0z or heavier hammer is fine.

Keep in mind my mentioning the nailer strip on the shingles, all your fasteners in the field should be on that line.

Only open up a bundle or two of shingles at a time and install all opened shingles before taking a break or quitting for the day.
Shingles left opened in the heat of the day will become many times hotter than when there in the wrapper and be more prone to scarring as your working on them, plus possibly stick together before installed.
I wasn't aware that there are two types of flashing, sub and counter. Thanks for pointing that out.

Could you please clarify what you mean by the following statement. It seems like you're telling me not to put any nails on, but then say to put nails on 1" from the edge:

"You want -0- nails in the L flashing field, nail roughly 1" in from the edges."

Also, I thought that the visible part of the step flashing ran in horizontal "steps" up the chimney. It seems like if I put in the step flashing, the exposed sections on the brick would be running parallel to the roof slope, and not horizontal. Is this what the counter flashing is for?

Thanks!
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Old 06-10-2009, 05:32 PM   #28
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Since I couldn't do much today because of the rain, I figured I'd at least cut all of my starters and get them ready. Well, you mentioned flipping the dimensionals upside down and cutting along the line where the two halves meet. But you also said (in another post) to lay the starters with the self-sealing strip facing up. If I cut along the line on the bottom, then I am cutting the self-sealing strip off. I would have to cut along the "dashed line" on the top in order to keep the self-sealing strip. Then the small portion with the self-sealing strip would be twice as thick as the rest of the starter. Which should I do? And if I am to keep the strip, should I apply the starter so that the strip is at the top or bottom? I would think bottom, but then the exposed edge will not be a nice clean cut, it will be the cut I made with the knife.

Also, the bottom edges of all the main shingles will be glued to the shingles below because of the self-sealing strip. But the starters and the first course of shingles will have nothing holding the bottoms down. Should I shoot in some roof tar to hold them down?

Thanks!
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Old 06-10-2009, 05:38 PM   #29
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I use 3 tab shingles for my starter course
So far I have had some left over from other roofs
On my current roof I need 8 starter strips on each side = 16 pieces. A bundle usually has 25 pieces
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Old 06-10-2009, 05:48 PM   #30
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Cut them where the two laminates meet and use the single layer.

What kind of shingles are they with the tar strip on the face?

I wouldn't worry about sealing the bottom row. It's a good idea, but roofs were put on for many years without sealing the bottom row to the starter.

3 tabs work good, but it's easier using a shingle the same size as the starter. All the laminates I know of are metric here, but could be english in your area (36"). 3 tabs work the best if you cut the tabs off and put the tar strip at the bottom.

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