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dc4nomore 06-05-2009 12:57 PM

Need roofing tips!
 
Ok so a sketchy roofer seemed to have conned me out of a $400 deposit I gave him, so I am going to attempt to reroof myself. I've already got some new dimensional shingles, 15 lb felt paper, and 4 box vents (we currently don't have any). I've still got to pick up some nails, drip edge metal, new flashing for around the chimney, and 3 pipe boots. Also I need to get some safety stuff (either those brackets that hold 2x10s or a harness).

The roof is about 14 squares, and two layers need to be torn off first. There aren't any valleys or gables or anything fancy - just the 3 pipes and some flashing around one chimney. Now I am a pretty handy person and normally do EVERYTHING myself, and the only reason I was going to pay someone to do the roof is becasue it kind of scares me to be up there. The pitch is steep, about 9:12. I don't think I'm scared of heights or anything, it's just that I can't seem to get a good foothold while up there, without wanting to slide down the roof.

I was going to buy a cheap nail gun from harbor freight to help me with this, but should I get an 11 gauge or a 10 gauge, or something different? Also, what length nails? I've got 3/4" planks as my roof deck...so I was thinking 1 1/4" or maybe even 1 1/2" nails since they are the same price.

I've got 5 full days off next week (Weds - Sun) and I'd really like to try to get this done...or at least as much as possible. Any tips?

Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

-Dave

Slyfox 06-05-2009 04:25 PM

First thing, take the time to read the manufacturers application suggestions on the wrappers of the shingles, or go to their website and read them on line.

14 squares, you won't/shouldn't use the dimensional shingles as starters or ridge caps.

Starter shingles. If you need 140' of drip, than you need 140' of starters.

Measure your hips and ridges,
with custom hip&ridge you need '1' one bundle for every 25',
using 3-tabs to make your own cap you need '1' one bundle for every 33'.

Deduct the amount of hip&ridge and starters you need from the field shingles,
14 square - 3 bundles starters = 13 square - 5 bundles of h&r = 12 square.

So you would actually have 12 square of dimensional shingles, 1 square of starters and 1 square of h&r.

I didn't notice what area your located in, in my area I run ice & water shield on all eaves including on a 9/12 pitch.

Both 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 nails will work on the field shingles, starters and h&r.

You'll need some thing smaller for your felt tho, either 1" hand nails or staples.
You can purchase a slap stick stapler for ten bucks or so.
Get a few tubes of roof cement or a one gallon can, which ever is cheaper and keep it on hand, when you have finished for the day walk over any part of the roof still not shingled and make sure there are no holes or tears in your felt "felt should be #30" but #15 works.

You'll need at least one tube of metal caulking for around any counter flashing's on that chimney.

When you install your pipe boots make sure you get at least two courses of shingles running over top.
When you install your box vents, depending on the size, there will be at least two courses, maybe three running over top.

When you cut the holes for your box vent into the deck, measure down from the ridge at both ends and strike a chalk line at 18", than measure the size of your hole going downward 'away from the ridge' off that line.

You should have a utility knife with a hook blade for cutting the shingles,
most all lumber yards and big box stores carry them.

If your going to use a nail gun, you need to make sure you have proper air preasure, run a few nails, if there not flush than you'll have to adjust the air on your compressor.

CONSTANTLY keep you roof deck clean, every time you finish installing a bundle of shingles, stop and pick up any scraps and toss them to a safe spot on the ground.

For safety, rent a harness, you can also rent the nail gun and accessories in most big cities instead of buying them.
But, also purchase or rent some roof jacks.
Use both, better safe than laying in bed for the next 3 or 4 weeks, than hobbling around for another 4 to 8 weeks because you broke a leg or dis located a shoulder.
I'm not going to even talk about the worse scenario of falling from a roof.

Gutters, hung in the best of quality workmanship with screws are still NOT a safety net, so do not use them for a foot hold while your stepping onto the roof, nor rely on them to stop or even slow you down should you fall.

Be aware of power lines near the home.

Call day labor offices near you and ask for experienced roofers,
you may at least find a few good laborers with roofing experience and they will charge you per hour for them.

I have to go, need to give a home owner an estimate, if I have time I'll try an type more down later.

Good Luck Sir.

dc4nomore 06-06-2009 02:17 AM

Wow. That is a very long and detailed response. Thank you for taking the time to write that.

Unfortunately, however, the roofer ended up calling me back earlier this evening. I say unfortunately because the more I thought about doing it, the more I got excited about it and wanted to do it myself. I went out and bought 400 bucks worth of stuff. I got a nail gun, huge box of coil nails, a bunch of roof jacks, one of those smack stick staplers, and a few other things. There's a few other things I'd need but I've got most of it.

But then the roofer calls me back, and gives me some bogus excuse as to why he didn't show up this morning, and didn't even bother to call. He promised he would be over tomorrow morning to start. We'll see. I told him if he doesn't show up, then he doesn't have the job. Whether or not that will forfeit my $400 deposit, I'm not sure. But even if I "give" him $400 and spend another 4 to 5 hundred on tools and supplies, then I'm still coming out almost $1000 cheaper if I do the work myself. Plus I just really enjoy doing things myself so that would be a plus too. And of course I'd get to keep the tools...:wink:

So we'll see if he actually shows up. Either way though, the response is very informative and helps to clear up a few things. I have a few questions but I'm too tired right now...I'll try to follow up tomorrow.

Thanks again.

Ed the Roofer 06-06-2009 06:53 PM

So, this Panic Anxiety Attack all started because the roofer was one day late and not considerate enough to make the time to give you a telephone call?

I am Not defending him, but schedules get screwed up ALL of the time, not only due to weather, but doing additional work on the current job and if any employee calls in sick, it slows everything down, A LOT.

But, good for you for being proactive and considering taking on this task.

Ed

dc4nomore 06-08-2009 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 283770)
So, this Panic Anxiety Attack all started because the roofer was one day late and not considerate enough to make the time to give you a telephone call?

Well if you had met this guy then you would understand why I thought he was trying to rip me off. I never felt comfortable with the idea of giving him any money up front at all and now wish I hadn't.

And guess what? He didn't show up on Saturday.

Slyfox 06-08-2009 07:27 AM

I'm in Youngstown, Ohio so if your in that area give me a call and I'll do what I can to help you out, even if it's just talking you through certain aspects of the work as you do the roof yourself.

Ed and I both belong to a roofing group and we know roofers in other parts of Ohio such as Toledo.

dc4nomore 06-08-2009 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slyfox (Post 284314)
I'm in Youngstown, Ohio so if your in that area give me a call and I'll do what I can to help you out, even if it's just talking you through certain aspects of the work as you do the roof yourself.

Youngstown, eh? I'm actually in Cincinnati. I've got a few questions in regards to your original post:

1. Ice Shield. Do you think I would need this in Cincinnati? It only snows a few times a year and is usually not very much. I'm not sure if we currently have one, but there didn't appear to be any problems in that area this or last winter. If we have one already, can we reuse it? If not, about how much would cost for new (about 70 ft.)?

2. Roof Jacks. Would you recommend putting them all along the bottom edge of the side I am working on, or only have one or two sets and just move them as I move along the roof? Also, is it better to move them up the roof towards the peak, so that they can actually be used as a foothold, rather than just a safety catch, or should I just have them at the bottom near the gutters?

3. Chimney Flashing. Does this get installed first, after the felt paper, or after the shingles?

4. Hips and Ridges. I don't have any hips, but as far as the ridge, my "roofer" had me pick up one square of 3-tabs for the ridge. How is this applied? Would I cut the 3 tabs off and lay those across the ridge, overlapping by an inch or two? Do I discard the rest of the shingle, the part that is not the "tab"?

5. Drip edge. I need drip metal along the entire perimeter of my roof, along both eaves and rake edges, correct? It is my understanding that the drip metal along the rakes goes on after the felt paper, but the drip metal along the eaves goes on before the felt paper, with the felt overlapping. Correct? Also, can I reuse existing drip metal? If not, about how much does this cost?

6. Starters. I've read that I need them along my eaves, but do I need them along the rakes as well? What is the purpose of these and how are they applied? I've heard that you put them on upside down but am unsure if that's correct. Also, you mentioned that I cannot use dimensionals for this. Not that I think my "roofer" is credible, but he diidn't mention anything of this, so I have one square of 3-tabs for the ridge cap, but only dimensionals for everything else (14 squares).

Thanks a lot for your help and responses. I really appreciate it. :thumbup:

Slyfox 06-08-2009 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc4nomore (Post 284383)
Youngstown, eh? I'm actually in Cincinnati. I've got a few questions in regards to your original post:

1. Ice Shield. Do you think I would need this in Cincinnati? It only snows a few times a year and is usually not very much. I'm not sure if we currently have one, but there didn't appear to be any problems in that area this or last winter. If we have one already, can we reuse it? If not, about how much would cost for new (about 70 ft.)?

A-1. On a 9/12 in your area you could skip the ice shield with out losing any sleep.
If you chose to use it anyhow you would be looking at $150.00 - $200.00.



2. Roof Jacks. Would you recommend putting them all along the bottom edge of the side I am working on, or only have one or two sets and just move them as I move along the roof? Also, is it better to move them up the roof towards the peak, so that they can actually be used as a foothold, rather than just a safety catch, or should I just have them at the bottom near the gutters?

A-2. Set the roof jacks across the entire bottom of the section your working on, on the third course of shingles up from the eave.
Leave them there until you are 100% finished.
Work as high as you can off them, than install another set of jacks, repeat as many times as needed.


3. Chimney Flashing. Does this get installed first, after the felt paper, or after the shingles?

A-3. Remove the entire section of roof, check for any wood work needed,
cover entire section with felt 'fasten well'.
As your installing your shingles and get to the chimney you'll need to install step flashing's, these flashing's are weaved into the shingles '1 shingle - 1 flashing', than your counter flashing will be installed after the shingles are completed.


4. Hips and Ridges. I don't have any hips, but as far as the ridge, my "roofer" had me pick up one square of 3-tabs for the ridge. How is this applied? Would I cut the 3 tabs off and lay those across the ridge, overlapping by an inch or two? Do I discard the rest of the shingle, the part that is not the "tab"?

A-4. You do cut your ridge caps out of the 3-tabs,
each tab is one ridge cap, but you do not use only the tab,
the 3 tabs are 12" long by 36" wide and every 12" there is a water line,
starting in the center of that water line, cut upward to the top of the black 'non exposed portion', making three caps from each shingle, each cap being 12" wide by 12" long.
When you install them, there is a notch dead center of each individual tab, that notch goe's in the center of the ridge thus there's roughly 3" rolled over either side of the ridge.
The overlap of each cap will be 5" over, thus only the colored part of the cap is exposed, all of the black top is covered.


5. Drip edge. I need drip metal along the entire perimeter of my roof, along both eaves and rake edges, correct? It is my understanding that the drip metal along the rakes goes on after the felt paper, but the drip metal along the eaves goes on before the felt paper, with the felt overlapping. Correct? Also, can I reuse existing drip metal? If not, about how much does this cost?

A-5. Your correct in how to install the drip,
I have re-used drip before when the home owners asked me to do so.
You'll be looking at less than $100.00, probable more like $70.00 if you decide not to re use the existing.


6. Starters. I've read that I need them along my eaves, but do I need them along the rakes as well? What is the purpose of these and how are they applied? I've heard that you put them on upside down but am unsure if that's correct. Also, you mentioned that I cannot use dimensionals for this. Not that I think my "roofer" is credible, but he diidn't mention anything of this, so I have one square of 3-tabs for the ridge cap, but only dimensionals for everything else (14 squares).

A-6. If you take a 3-tab shingle and cut off the tabs, throw the tabs away, the nailer 'black portion' left is a starter strip.
You'll run that starter with it hanging roughly an 1/2" over the drip edge with the self sealer strip facing outward away from the roof, you will lay it on both the eaves and rakes the same way and 4 fasteners in each.
On the eveas there is an additional step tho, because each starter strip has to off set from the first course of shingles by at least 6".
You can cut that strip off the dimensional shingles, but they cost $3.00 bucks a shingle, the 3-tabs cost $2.25 per shingle.


Thanks a lot for your help and responses. I really appreciate it. :thumbup:


If I wasn't clear enough on my responses just let me know and I'll try again.

MJW 06-08-2009 10:54 PM

I just have a quick question and hope I'm not interrupting........

Doesn't anyone else have codes to follow or inspections?

When I pick up a permit, I usually pick up the flyers there for their application of roofing. It outlines everything you must do. Every city is a little different, so that's why I pick it up.

Ed the Roofer 06-08-2009 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJW (Post 284744)
I just have a quick question and hope I'm not interrupting........

Doesn't anyone else have codes to follow or inspections?

When I pick up a permit, I usually pick up the flyers there for their application of roofing. It outlines everything you must do. Every city is a little different, so that's why I pick it up.

I do the same MJW, but also because they make you sign an agreement that you will follow their unique codes, which may or may not have been modified from UBC or IRC commonly accepted codes.

Some towns want Ice and Water Shield 12" to the interior of the exterior heated wall, and some want 24" inside.

I prefer 24", but if you add 300 to 600 feet of I & W Shield to your proposal and no one else bid it that way, you need to justify why you are so much more competent and also so much more pricier.

Also, there are some that make up rules too. Two towns, (same building inspector), will not allow Aluminum Flashings if there is any Masonry surfaces that they would be attached to.

I know the reason why, but I have never seen in real life, the wicked effect that supposedly can occur. So, if that is what I am supposed to install, then it is buffered by a layer of bituthane, (I & W), between the masonry and the aluminum.

Ed

dc4nomore 06-09-2009 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 284757)
Two towns will not allow Aluminum Flashings if there is any Masonry surfaces that they would be attached to.

I know the reason why, but I have never seen in real life, the wicked effect that supposedly can occur.

Ed

I'm just curious, what is the reason why?

dc4nomore 06-09-2009 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slyfox (Post 284608)
If I wasn't clear enough on my responses just let me know and I'll try again.

Thank you Slyfox for the helpful tips. I really appreciate it. I've got a few additional comments/questions if you've got the time:

1. Ice Dam. I think I'm going to pass on this. I saw it at Lowe's today, and you are right - it would cost me close to $200 to add that.

2. Roof Jacks. Just to clarify, do you think it would be worth the extra cost to leave the first row of roof jacks installed the whole time, and then adding additional jacks higher up, rather than just moving them as needed? My only concern is that it costs close to $20 for each complete set of jacks (two jacks plus one 8' 2x6). I currently have enough for four complete sets. I did pick up a roofing harness today.

Also, with the roof jacks, is it a problem if I need to install them in a spot AFTER laying new shingles? Would I just pound the nails in after I'm finished and cover with roofing cement?

I was thinking that I would begin by scraping the bottom few rows of shingles off, from the ladder, and then installing the bottom row of roof jacks, again from the ladder. Then, once those are on, I could climb on the roof and begin tearing off the rest. I would have to remove the jacks to lay the first sheet of tar paper, then put the jacks back on so I could lay paper on the rest of the roof. Then I'd have to remove them again to lay the first row of shingles, and install them once more to install the rest of the shingles. Does that sound right to you, or am I doing it backwards?

3. Starters. I'd prefer to use the dimensionals if I can, because I got them cheap and don't think I can return them to the place where I bought them. So you definitely advise cutting the "dimensional" part off, rather than just placing it upside down (with the normally covered up part towards the edge of the roof)? And to clarify the starters on the rake will be laid vertically, rather than horizontally, correct? Also to clarify, the starters are laid with the grit (which normally faces the sky) facing the wood sheathing?

4. Carrying up new shingles. When is the best time to do this? I figured it would be after the tar paper is laid, but my dad said I should bring them up first, before the tearoff, because the tar paper is too slippery. What do you think? Either way, I plan on constructing a hoist/pulley system with a sort of "sled" to ride up the extension ladder and then up to the top of the roof to make the job a bit easier.

5. Tarps. The weather this week looks questionable. If I finish the tear off, and either am or am not able to finish laying the tar paper in the same day, would covering with tarps be sufficient if it were to rain that night or the next day? Again, I plan on only working on one side until it is completely finished in order to minimize potential weather problems, etc.

I'm sure you're busy, and appreciate the time you're taking to help me. If it makes you feel any better, it took me over an hour to organize my thoughts and write this post alone...

Ed the Roofer 06-09-2009 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc4nomore (Post 284777)
I'm just curious, what is the reason why?

Aluminum is attacked by Alkali Hydroxides contained in wet lime mortar, portland cement, and concrete, resulting in increasing PH values and that would then follow, that if a masonry chimney were to be
"Re-Wetted" from future rains, the corrosiveness of the contact can be reinitiated over and over again.

That is why I ensure a separation membrane of the Ice and Water Shield between any aluminum flashings and masonry structures.

Ed


Slyfox 06-09-2009 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJW (Post 284744)
I just have a quick question and hope I'm not interrupting........

Doesn't anyone else have codes to follow or inspections?

When I pick up a permit, I usually pick up the flyers there for their application of roofing. It outlines everything you must do. Every city is a little different, so that's why I pick it up.

In Ohio residential roofing is a non regulated trade and doe's not require a permit to be pulled if the roofing is the only work going on.
I'm sure there very well may be cities that do require it, but I have never encountered one as of yet.

I follow county codes on all my work which is why I am always toward the top of the list of estimates I do, but I don't have to because no one is going to inspect my work once I'm done.
I do it anyone because there are framing inspections in new construction work, which is the field I work in most, thus it's become habit.

Slyfox 06-09-2009 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc4nomore (Post 284781)
Thank you Slyfox for the helpful tips. I really appreciate it. I've got a few additional comments/questions if you've got the time:

1. Ice Dam. I think I'm going to pass on this. I saw it at Lowe's today, and you are right - it would cost me close to $200 to add that.

A-1. In my area, there are a couple winters a decade in which we receive the type of weather that ice shield was designed to protect against, in your area those odds are probably less being that you are further south, so like I said, don;t lose any sleep over the decision to not use it.

2. Roof Jacks. Just to clarify, do you think it would be worth the extra cost to leave the first row of roof jacks installed the whole time, and then adding additional jacks higher up, rather than just moving them as needed? My only concern is that it costs close to $20 for each complete set of jacks (two jacks plus one 8' 2x6). I currently have enough for four complete sets. I did pick up a roofing harness today.

A-2. Working from the ladder, tear off the existing shingles four '4' feet high up from the eave, install new drip 'unless your reusing existing' than install a course of felt paper, do that across the entire bottom edge.
Still working from the ladders, install your starter strip and the first three '3' courses of shingles.
Using 16p spikes "Not deck spikes" run one into a stud roughly one inch below the top of the last shingle you installed 'non exposed section',
place your roof jack 'top notch' on that spike than add one more spike in the second to lowest notch on the jack.
When you install your fourth '4'th' shingle the lower 'exposed' section of that course will cover the top of the jacks, so once your done an you hit the jack from the bottom and pound upward until it slides off the spike,
than lift the shingles exposed end to see the spike and pound it down, no roof cement is needed assuming your in a stud like your supposed to be.
You should have roof jacks the full length of the eave before you step on the roof to tear off and they should be left in place until your 100% finished.
You should be able to work roughly eight feet high up off that set than you'll need an additional set of jacks.


Also, with the roof jacks, is it a problem if I need to install them in a spot AFTER laying new shingles? Would I just pound the nails in after I'm finished and cover with roofing cement?

I was thinking that I would begin by scraping the bottom few rows of shingles off, from the ladder, and then installing the bottom row of roof jacks, again from the ladder. Then, once those are on, I could climb on the roof and begin tearing off the rest. I would have to remove the jacks to lay the first sheet of tar paper, then put the jacks back on so I could lay paper on the rest of the roof. Then I'd have to remove them again to lay the first row of shingles, and install them once more to install the rest of the shingles. Does that sound right to you, or am I doing it backwards?

3. Starters. I'd prefer to use the dimensionals if I can, because I got them cheap and don't think I can return them to the place where I bought them. So you definitely advise cutting the "dimensional" part off, rather than just placing it upside down (with the normally covered up part towards the edge of the roof)? And to clarify the starters on the rake will be laid vertically, rather than horizontally, correct? Also to clarify, the starters are laid with the grit (which normally faces the sky) facing the wood sheathing?

A-3. Turn the dimensional over 'exposed side down' and use a straight blade utility knife to cut the top portion 'that you'll use off', once the shingle is flipped over you will see where the two portions laminated together, follow that line to make your cut.
If you just flip the dimensional over and apply the entire shingle for starter strip purposes the will be a very easily seen hump from the ground,
it won't hurt anything but will be an eyesore.

Starters will be laid with the 'grit' upward just like the field shingles,
and yes, the gable ends 'rakes' will have the starters running up them vertically.


4. Carrying up new shingles. When is the best time to do this? I figured it would be after the tar paper is laid, but my dad said I should bring them up first, before the tearoff, because the tar paper is too slippery. What do you think? Either way, I plan on constructing a hoist/pulley system with a sort of "sled" to ride up the extension ladder and then up to the top of the roof to make the job a bit easier.

A-4. I would suggest loading as you go.
Say you need 8 bundles to go as high as you can reach from the jacks,
all the way from one rake 'gable' to the other, than load 8 bundles at a time.


5. Tarps. The weather this week looks questionable. If I finish the tear off, and either am or am not able to finish laying the tar paper in the same day, would covering with tarps be sufficient if it were to rain that night or the next day? Again, I plan on only working on one side until it is completely finished in order to minimize potential weather problems, etc.

A-5. Tear off a '4' four foot sections at a time, from rake 'gable sides' to rake,
clean and de-nail it, install new felt, than do another strip, again and again until you have torn it all off.
Every time you place that course of felt you will have just a couple inches of exposed deck, which is all you need to rush to cover should it start raining, which you could cover by taking a sheet of felt and lapping under the new and over the existing shingles you haven't torn off yet and temp nailing it in place.

Even if you get the felt down, I would still advise covering with a tarp.

I would not have to do this, but I have been installing roofs since 1979, full time, year round, all seasons and have learned the ins and outs of a proper water tight underlayment and trust me when I say it takes more than just proper laps to achieve that, way more than I could explain here in writing.


I'm sure you're busy, and appreciate the time you're taking to help me. If it makes you feel any better, it took me over an hour to organize my thoughts and write this post alone...

As a home owner installing a roof on your personal home, you are not bound by law to follow nor meet OSHA rules & regulations,
but I can not, will not comment on how to work a steeper roof with only one set of roof jacks set up across the bottom, thus I strongly suggest spending the additional monies for more roof jacks.
Find your local shingle supply house, maybe an ABC Supply, they will normally have better deals price wize on roof jacks, etc., than what lowes will.


Actually the first three days of this week are rainy here and we will not be starting our next re-roof until Thursday, so it's just service calls and two inspections for home buyers yesterday and today, so was no problem trying to help you out.


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