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Old 12-19-2010, 02:26 PM   #1
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Metal Roof Questions


I need some professional advice regarding a metal roof I am having installed. From what I've read here, this is a great place to ask.

The roof is a 26ga, 1-1/2" mechanically crimped double lock standing seam. No hips, no valleys. Low slope, 1/12 and 2/12.

1-Should a slip sheet of red resin paper by applied under the metal or will the metal not stick to the WintergardHT (100% coverage) over time?

2-Should there be cleats installed behind the drip and rake edges?

3-Should the corners where the edge and rake meet, meet evenly?

4-How should the rake edge panels be flashed?

5-How far apart should the floating clips be placed?

6-Should oil canning be evident immediately, even before the seaming is done?

Thanks

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Old 12-19-2010, 09:07 PM   #2
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Metal Roof Questions


I need some professional advice regarding a metal roof I am having installed. From what I've read here, this is a great place to ask.

The roof is a 26ga, 1-1/2" mechanically crimped double lock standing seam. No hips, no valleys. Low slope, 1/12 and 2/12.

1-Should a slip sheet of red resin paper by applied under the metal or will the metal not stick to the WintergardHT (100% coverage) over time?

2-Should there be cleats installed behind the drip and rake edges?

3-Should the corners where the edge and rake meet, meet evenly?

4-How should the rake edge panels be flashed?

5-How far apart should the floating clips be placed?

6-Should oil canning be evident immediately, even before the seaming is done?
-------------------
1.Yes.
2.Not to the locking strip. It gets nailed 4" oc. Panel cleats start directly above drip-edge.
3. Not sure what you mean. I run my roof so rake panels are close to the same width.
4.The outer edge is locked to a drip-edge there with 1/2" play for expansion.
5. 12" OC.
6. No. It's a sign the cleats are too tight to the panels eliminating roof for expansion and contraction.
Here's a recent tin roof. There are many detail pix on my site and links to another site.

http://www.albertsroofing.com/Tin%20...to_gallery.htm

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Old 12-20-2010, 01:42 AM   #3
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Metal Roof Questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinner666 View Post
I need some professional advice regarding a metal roof I am having installed. From what I've read here, this is a great place to ask.

The roof is a 26ga, 1-1/2" mechanically crimped double lock standing seam. No hips, no valleys. Low slope, 1/12 and 2/12.

1-Should a slip sheet of red resin paper by applied under the metal or will the metal not stick to the WintergardHT (100% coverage) over time?

2-Should there be cleats installed behind the drip and rake edges?

3-Should the corners where the edge and rake meet, meet evenly?

4-How should the rake edge panels be flashed?

5-How far apart should the floating clips be placed?

6-Should oil canning be evident immediately, even before the seaming is done?
-------------------
1.Yes.
2.Not to the locking strip. It gets nailed 4" oc. Panel cleats start directly above drip-edge.
3. Not sure what you mean. I run my roof so rake panels are close to the same width.
4.The outer edge is locked to a drip-edge there with 1/2" play for expansion.
5. 12" OC.
6. No. It's a sign the cleats are too tight to the panels eliminating roof for expansion and contraction.
Here's a recent tin roof. There are many detail pix on my site and links to another site.

http://www.albertsroofing.com/Tin%20...to_gallery.htm
Thanks for the timely reply tinner. Looks like you do some amazing work! I briefly thought about doing this job myself, but after doing some research I quickly realized it would be best left to a professional.

I would just like to clarify a couple of things.

1-So without the slip sheet, the metal will stick to the Wintergard and that will prevent the panel from moving during normal thermal expansion cycles. Is the slip sheet required by code anywhere that you know of?

2-The cleats I'm referring to run the full length of the drip/rake edge flashing and would be screwed to the facia and then the drip/rake edge flashing would hook onto the cleat and then be screwed to the deck. As it is, where the ends of each flashing piece butt together, they don't line up to each other, and it is unsightly. No nails were used anywhere, it was screwed to the deck every 3 feet or so. Is this sufficient?

3-Oops! I meant to say where the lowest edges of the drip edge and the rake edge flashing meet at the corners. Should they not be even and not offset by a quarter to a half of an inch?

4-The outside 'leg' of the standing seam was ripped off the panel then the cut edge was tucked into a piece of flat stock with one edge having a inch wide double 180 degree fold (p-mould?), and then caulked. This 'p-mould' was caulked and screwed, every 3 feet or so, on top of the rake edge flashing before the panel was installed. They probably used four cases of caulk on the entire 29 square roof! Seems like a lot to me.

5-The panel cleats (floating clips) are not hand-crafted as seen in your photos. Each is a two piece set--a six inch piece of 90 deg. angle with the center 4.5" of the corner removed and a three inch wide 's' shaped piece of galvanized that hooks into the missing corner of the angle and then hooks over the panel. The angle is then double screwed to the deck. They installed these every 5 or 6 feet. Is this sufficient? The top end of each panel also has a single screw in the center of the pan. This screw is hidden by the ridge cap. I guess any expansion is going to happen at the eave then.

6-With this style of panel cleat, I don't see how they can be installed too tight. When fully extended the cleats are 1-13/16" tall and the standing seam is 1-1/2" tall. Are there any other reasons for the oil-canning? The panels are about 18" wide with double half inch wide, evenly spaced striations running the entire length. Oddly enough, I was told these striations would greatly reduce, if not eliminate, the oil canning.

Thanks again for your input and I apologize for being so long winded.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:46 AM   #4
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Metal Roof Questions


Lighter gages (26,29) will naturally show more oil-canning than heavier gages, even with striations. However, if the panels are stressed even slightly when installed, this will compound oil-canning. This is usually caused by some clips being installed tighter against the panel than others on the same panel.

Metal is a rigid material and if not installed the way it wants to rest, it retaliates.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:51 AM   #5
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Metal Roof Questions


Those floating cleats meant the roof doesn't touch the underlay.
5-6' apart for cleats are OK for winds up to 10 mph. Sounds like a jackleg install to me.
Virtually No caulk is necessary for a properly installed roof.
I only use it when using steel to short-circuit capilary action when doing certain lap joints. Screws don't normally go into the fascia either.
Did you hire ashingle nailer that just said "I can do that too?"
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:16 AM   #6
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Metal Roof Questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNBroken View Post
Lighter gages (26,29) will naturally show more oil-canning than heavier gages, even with striations. However, if the panels are stressed even slightly when installed, this will compound oil-canning. This is usually caused by some clips being installed tighter against the panel than others on the same panel.

Metal is a rigid material and if not installed the way it wants to rest, it retaliates.
Thanks OldNBroken. Understood. I'm certain that is at least part of the problem. Perhaps the new deck they put down is not perfectly flat as well?

Is the oil canning purely a cosmetic issue or does it compromise the structural integrity of the roof also? Fortunately, if just cosmetic that is, the low slope of the roof hides the oil canning from view except when on the roof.

Any thoughts on my other points?
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:19 AM   #7
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Metal Roof Questions


All mfrs will have an oil-canning disclaimer for their system, even the upper-end systems I do. In most cases it is strictly cosmetic and will not affect the function of the system. Yes, the flatness (or lack thereof) of the roofdeck will affect how the panels lay and the roofer can only do the best they can to alleviate this problem. We always have that fight on most existing structures as well as many new ones.

The cleats you refer to we call wind cleats/clips. Around here anyone worth their salt uses them as much as possible as they serve both an engineering purpose as well as asthetics.
Unfortunately 90% of installers are basically roofers who install metal roofs and only know enough about metal to be able to collect the check at the end of the job. Therefore we rarely see them using silly things such as wind cleats, edge stiffener, head closures or other annoyingly time-consuming accessories. Instead they replace them with screws and caulk. There are very very few areas or instances we will ever use any, or no more than a small amount of caulk on any given roof. Caulk without some type of mechanical seal behind it is never anything more than a temporary water stop and will cause problems in the future. Caulk is the lazy roofers solution to keeping water out.

Any time you are going over ice/water, especially if it is granulated, you will want some type of a slip sheet. It's not as much for it sticking to it as it is the abrasion from rubbing against it while it moves.

Any time a panel is cut at the rake, the new edge should be folded up about the same height as the factory legs, to ensure a mechanical water stop, before the rake flashing is installed. just leaving it flat is asking for problems on that rake sometime in the future.

This does not mean all their systems fail and I am not saying your roof is done right or wrong. It just sounds, as Frank said, like a roofer who also installs metal did your roof.

Lucky (or unfortunately) for many homeowners, their structures are not very large. Therefore the physics of metal and mother nature do not have as great an effect on their system as larger buildings.

Last edited by OldNBroken; 12-20-2010 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:45 AM   #8
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Metal Roof Questions


OldNBroken, thanks. I guess I can live with the oil canning as long as it is strictly cosmetic as you say. As I mentioned, it is not visible from the ground. There is probably a combination of reasons going on in this regard.

Are these the wind clips you are familiar with?

Metal Roof Questions-panelcleats_1.jpg

Do you think the 5 to 6 foot spacing is sufficient with these?

This is how I thought the drip edge detail should look.

DripEdgeDetail.pdf

Is the cleat in the drawing what you refer to as an edge stiffener? My install looks like this minus the cleat and screw.

Naturally, the contractor promised me a "top notch" roof. He said he has a dedicated metal crew. "Meticulous attention to detail" was promised.The lead guy seemed to know his stuff but I believe he is somewhat handcuffed by the contractor cutting corners and trying to make some extra profit off my back.

I'll have more later, but now I gotta run to visit a friend in the hospital. Sad, especially at this time of year.

I'll talk to you guys soon.

Thanks again!
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:06 PM   #9
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5-6' is not sufficiant most manu.want them no further apart that 2'
your edge detail is correct

these Atas panels?The ''joggle'' cleat should run full length
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:47 PM   #10
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Before I go scaring you please remember what I said about resi's being smaller structures therefore they aren't normally subject to the same degree of stresses and movements of larger buildings so don't take what I say as "your roof is going to fall off".
I know they exist and are standard on many lower-end systems but 2-pc clips are not allowed on any of my specs for two main reasons.
1. That clip is two pieces of stamped 24ga metal and does not have much structural strength. Any clip or cleat should be minimum of 22ga.
2. When using those clips they are the weak link in your roof. The only thing holding the panel to the roof is that fold in the upper piece of 24ga material.
I have seen roofs fail in nominal winds by the clips separating from themselves as well as by the whole clip tearing off the screws fastening it to the deck.

Although many of my wind uplift calcs allow for 5-7' clip spacing on projects, these are fully engineered systems. Yours is not an engineered system and Tom is correct. That clip style spaced that far apart is leaving you very little holding your roof on in any amount of wind. I would have serious concerns with that.

As far as your detail you posted, yes that is a good example of a continuous wind cleat and we use them standard whenever possible. The eave detail shown there is used on some systems and by some people but not on others.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:21 AM   #11
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5-6' is not sufficiant most manu.want them no further apart that 2'
your edge detail is correct

these Atas panels?The ''joggle'' cleat should run full length
Thanks tomstruble, I'm trying to get the manufacturer specs on installation details--no luck yet.

When you say my edge detail is correct, do you mean the drawing is correct or the way it was actually done, minus the cleat in the drawing, is correct?

I'm not certain who made the coil stock-it's galvalume with a Valspar coating and 50 year warrantee. It was formed into panels and trim by Willoughby Supply in northern Ohio.

What's the "joggle" cleat. Is it the uninstalled cleat in the drawing?
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:36 AM   #12
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I was just saying the drawing is one installation spec, but not the only one. Most resi jobs I see the installers don't take the time for any type of eave detail. They just give it some overhang and leave it bare.

Unless there is a system warranty I don't know of any mfr detail going to show exact clip spacing as that would put them in a liability situation if someone's roof were to fail. You can find details on how the clip is installed and that's about it. The only proper way to know proper clip spacing is to have an engineer do wind uplift calcs on your specific building with your specific roofing. Not feasible or done much at all on residential roofs though. Even without em, can tell you 5' is wayyyy too far apart.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:14 PM   #13
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Before I go scaring you please remember what I said about resi's being smaller structures therefore they aren't normally subject to the same degree of stresses and movements of larger buildings so don't take what I say as "your roof is going to fall off".
I know they exist and are standard on many lower-end systems but 2-pc clips are not allowed on any of my specs for two main reasons.
1. That clip is two pieces of stamped 24ga metal and does not have much structural strength. Any clip or cleat should be minimum of 22ga.
2. When using those clips they are the weak link in your roof. The only thing holding the panel to the roof is that fold in the upper piece of 24ga material.
I have seen roofs fail in nominal winds by the clips separating from themselves as well as by the whole clip tearing off the screws fastening it to the deck.

Although many of my wind uplift calcs allow for 5-7' clip spacing on projects, these are fully engineered systems. Yours is not an engineered system and Tom is correct. That clip style spaced that far apart is leaving you very little holding your roof on in any amount of wind. I would have serious concerns with that.

As far as your detail you posted, yes that is a good example of a continuous wind cleat and we use them standard whenever possible. The eave detail shown there is used on some systems and by some people but not on others.
OlNBroken, Not scared, yet, but very seriously concerned. Some of the runs are over forty feet long in a single piece.

I mic'ed each of the clip pieces. The bottom is around .050" (18 ga) and ,yes, the top is only 24 ga, I measured about .025". So as you say it is still the weak point of the assembly. On top of that, with three holes for screws in the bottom half, they only used two of them.

I was able to confirm the spacing they used on the panel cleats from some photos I took during the install. They put one about every other course of the Wintergard, or about six foot apart. The drip edge is screwed at about two foot intervals.

The eave detail drawing is what I expected in a top notch roof. I'll post later about the rake edge detail used.

Thanks

Last edited by mem; 12-21-2010 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:00 PM   #14
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Metal Roof Questions


''joggle cleat''is one manufacturers name for a z shape piece that trims and pans get locked in to

first clip should be no more than 6'' from the end of the panel,1 screw per bracket

Last edited by Tom Struble; 12-21-2010 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:34 PM   #15
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Yes, only need two screws per clip, but what type of screw did they use? Yes, that clip is the weak link in your system.
Regardless of the system or clip placement in the field, it is standard practice to put one clip <6" from eave and ridge and the next clip within 24" of that clip. In the field 36-42" is usually comfortable.

As I said about your eave detail. It would be nice if more installers would put a little more into their details but, unfortunately the majority either don't know how or don't care.

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