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Old 02-26-2011, 10:57 AM   #16
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Leaking Ceiling, Do I Need a Roofer?


am I right in assuming this is a job for a roofer and that I shouldn't need to call the mason back?

Can't really tell from your pics. You might need both. You need to find an experienced roofer that's interested in solving your problem vs just trying to pull a paycheck. There are 4-5 things that might be causing the leak. Figuring out which one is the key.

edit: Put your location in your profile. Some of us might know someone qualified in your area.

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Old 02-26-2011, 02:00 PM   #17
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Leaking Ceiling, Do I Need a Roofer?


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am I right in assuming this is a job for a roofer and that I shouldn't need to call the mason back?

Can't really tell from your pics. You might need both. You need to find an experienced roofer that's interested in solving your problem vs just trying to pull a paycheck. There are 4-5 things that might be causing the leak. Figuring out which one is the key.

edit: Put your location in your profile. Some of us might know someone qualified in your area.
My location is Jonesboro, Arkansas. I'll be sure to put it in my profile. Thanks.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:17 PM   #18
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Leaking Ceiling, Do I Need a Roofer?


OK, well roofer came out and did some work about a month ago. We have had a few good rains here and during one of those.....the ceiling leaked again! I called the roofer back and he came out today, after another good rain during the first half of the day today.

1. First he checked the ceiling where the leak was coming through and it was dry. He even let me on the step ladder to feel myself and it was indeed dry. The bucket under the ceiling that we've been using to catch water was also dry, not moisture at all. He also was able to take pieces of the ceiling (drywall) and crumble them like they were dried leaves.

2. He went up in the attic and checked around the fireplace. The insulation was dry but he noticed this about the fireplace immediately:



You can see the flue and inside the chimney. It's like whoever built the house simply created the 4 walls of the chimney.....until the point where it connected to the house. I am assuming it is like that all the way down too. The roofer wasn't sure who I should call about that but he was pretty certain that was where my leak was coming from.

Here is a pic of the chimney still wet a few hours after the rain had ceased.



Could this possibly be it or did this roofer just take me? I kind of find it hard to see him being dishonest because the ceiling and attic were dry as can be after some good storms today. Who would I need to call or how can I alleviate this issue? He suggested temporarily placing a tarp or plastic over the chimney and seeing if it still leaks but he was pretty certain that was the problem. Why would it leak one time but not another?

To be honest, I'd like to tear down the chimney and rebuild it with siding like that around the house and not the brick, as you can see from the photos in this thread but I figure that cost thousands of dollars but this leak is going to cost me too.

Any suggestions, thoughts, questions, etc.??? I'm pretty desperate now.

Last edited by Phreek; 04-04-2011 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:44 PM   #19
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Leaking Ceiling, Do I Need a Roofer?


If the roofer couldn't find fault with the flashing, then you've got limited choices. The brick is saturating and there is no provision to drive the water back to the surface.

You'll have to through flash it for a permanent fix or seal the brick which will probably need to be repeated every 3-4 years.

Or as you mentioned, you could strip the brick and install siding on the chase.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:26 AM   #20
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I’m still not convinced it’s not a roofing/flashing issue despite what your roofer had to say.

If you zoom in on the attic picture you can see right behind the white bucket the OSB and top plate have been wet. Looks the same on the other side too. At least that’s what I’m seeing.

Did your roofer stick his head in that opening and take a look?

Did he peel back any insulation to expose the top side of the sheetrock and trace the water back?

Was it determined that there is indeed a cricket?

Has anyone been up there with a hose and tried to make it leak? That’s the first thing I do when I don’t see the obvious.

I’d call another roofer out to take a look and this time send him up there with your camera and get some good pictures of the area and post them here.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:56 AM   #21
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Im still not convinced its not a roofing/flashing issue despite what your roofer had to say.

If you zoom in on the attic picture you can see right behind the white bucket the OSB and top plate have been wet. Looks the same on the other side too. At least thats what Im seeing.

Did your roofer stick his head in that opening and take a look?

Did he peel back any insulation to expose the top side of the sheetrock and trace the water back?

Was it determined that there is indeed a cricket?

Has anyone been up there with a hose and tried to make it leak? Thats the first thing I do when I dont see the obvious.

Id call another roofer out to take a look and this time send him up there with your camera and get some good pictures of the area and post them here.
Ron -

I fix about 20 of these a year. The problem is that the brick ends above the sheathing on the back and part of the two sides, either supported on a lintel bolted to the framing or more likely laid on the framing itself. The flashing is only cut into the brick about an 1" in most cases. In a hard or prolonged rain, the brick saturates and moisture bypasses the flashing flange. When it gets to the bottom course, it has no where to go but onto the roof sheathing. Even with a cricket, the moisture can bypass the cricket counter flashing. It's not water coming down the roof, but water moving inside the brick.

If the brick went all the way to the foundation, like it does on the front of the chimney, the water will travel down to the brick seat and dissipate there. The only way to cure this is to through flash which brings the water back to the surface or seal the brick which keeps the water from by=passing the flashing.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:24 AM   #22
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Leaking Ceiling, Do I Need a Roofer?


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I’m still not convinced it’s not a roofing/flashing issue despite what your roofer had to say.

If you zoom in on the attic picture you can see right behind the white bucket the OSB and top plate have been wet. Looks the same on the other side too. At least that’s what I’m seeing.
I do not see that but then again I am no expert and have little idea of what I am looking at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikfishron View Post
Did your roofer stick his head in that opening and take a look?
Yes, he did do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikfishron View Post
Did he peel back any insulation to expose the top side of the sheetrock and trace the water back?
He did this too, this was actually when he handed me some of the insulation to show that it was dry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikfishron View Post
Was it determined that there is indeed a cricket?
Actually there is a cricket which surprised me because I did not think one was up there. The roofer took me to higher ground and I could easily see it there.

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Originally Posted by kwikfishron View Post
Has anyone been up there with a hose and tried to make it leak? That’s the first thing I do when I don’t see the obvious.
That's one thing that was not done. I'd like to do that myself but I truly believe this is an issue of the brick no going all the way down the house. I could be completely and totally wrong but it looks feasible to me.

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I’d call another roofer out to take a look and this time send him up there with your camera and get some good pictures of the area and post them here.
What type of additional pictures would help? I mean I have called one brick person and 3 roofers, the last one came highly recommended in the area. I really don't want to keep throwing money at the problem but I do want the problem fixed.

Thanks for your input, it is greatly appreciated.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:43 AM   #23
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If the roofer couldn't find fault with the flashing, then you've got limited choices. The brick is saturating and there is no provision to drive the water back to the surface.

You'll have to through flash it for a permanent fix or seal the brick which will probably need to be repeated every 3-4 years.

Or as you mentioned, you could strip the brick and install siding on the chase.
Would you suggest having another roofer come out or is this a job for another specialist?

Through flash? What exactly is that?

How is the brick sealed and why does it need to be repeated?

Probably wrong forum but how much would a strip and replace cost? I'd like to go that way because the chase is actually leaning. Instead of a 90 degree angle, the top 10-15 feet of the chimney is leaning at about an 85 degree angle toward the house. I'm sure this is not helping with the leak either.
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:20 PM   #24
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Leaking Ceiling, Do I Need a Roofer?


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Would you suggest having another roofer come out or is this a job for another specialist?

Through flash? What exactly is that?

How is the brick sealed and why does it need to be repeated?

Probably wrong forum but how much would a strip and replace cost? I'd like to go that way because the chase is actually leaning. Instead of a 90 degree angle, the top 10-15 feet of the chimney is leaning at about an 85 degree angle toward the house. I'm sure this is not helping with the leak either.
Through flashing goes all the way through the brick back to the sheathing behind the brick. That way, and moisture that gets in the brick is sent back to the surface. It needs to be installed when the brick is laid. It can be retrofitted (we do it often), but you have to find a mason who will think outside the box and a roofer who will work along with him.

Sealer is applied (normally sprayed) on the outside. It must be re-applied because it wears away or gets broken down by UV rays - like any other coating.

If the chimney (chase, actually) is leaning back toward the house, you've confirmed my suspicion that the brick is likely resting on the roof framing/sheathing. The weight has settled some or there is some rot from the moisture infiltration. This is something I see far too frequently.

Don't know about the cost to strip the brick and re-side, but you'll probably have some minor structural repairs to deal with. But stripping/re-siding is not that big of an operation.
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Old 04-05-2011, 01:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Through flashing goes all the way through the brick back to the sheathing behind the brick. That way, and moisture that gets in the brick is sent back to the surface. It needs to be installed when the brick is laid. It can be retrofitted (we do it often), but you have to find a mason who will think outside the box and a roofer who will work along with him.

Sealer is applied (normally sprayed) on the outside. It must be re-applied because it wears away or gets broken down by UV rays - like any other coating.

If the chimney (chase, actually) is leaning back toward the house, you've confirmed my suspicion that the brick is likely resting on the roof framing/sheathing. The weight has settled some or there is some rot from the moisture infiltration. This is something I see far too frequently.

Don't know about the cost to strip the brick and re-side, but you'll probably have some minor structural repairs to deal with. But stripping/re-siding is not that big of an operation.
It sounds like I need to start doing some research in the strip and replace option.

1. I have had a difficult time getting a mason or roofer to come out. I can't imagine the trouble I'd get in to try to get both to come out.....at the same time.....to think outside the box AND work together! I'd actually go that way if I knew I could get 2 to do the job.....RIGHT!!

2. The chase is already leaning which doesn't look good and definitely won't if it is put back on the market anytime.

3. The sealant seems like a good temporary fix, at least until we get some idea of the cost of replacing the chase and get it started. What specialist can do this? Could I buy the material myself at a home improvement store and diy? If so, materials would I go in looking for? Do you just apply it to the outside of the chase down to the point where it meets the house? Where does the water go then?

4. It seems like you see this rather often. My question is, why build a chimney like this? It seems destined to leak and it seems like it could be a major fire hazard as well. All other pics I have looked at show the flue covered in attics. I just don't understand the point of doing it half way.

seeyou, I'd like to take some time to offer my extreme thanks for all your past/present/future input. I wish I could do something for you because I feel like I owe you a favor. All the info has been greatly appreciated. Thank you!
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:46 PM   #26
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It sounds like I need to start doing some research in the strip and replace option.

1. I have had a difficult time getting a mason or roofer to come out. I can't imagine the trouble I'd get in to try to get both to come out.....at the same time.....to think outside the box AND work together! I'd actually go that way if I knew I could get 2 to do the job.....RIGHT!!

2. The chase is already leaning which doesn't look good and definitely won't if it is put back on the market anytime.

3. The sealant seems like a good temporary fix, at least until we get some idea of the cost of replacing the chase and get it started. What specialist can do this? Could I buy the material myself at a home improvement store and diy? If so, materials would I go in looking for? Do you just apply it to the outside of the chase down to the point where it meets the house? Where does the water go then?

4. It seems like you see this rather often. My question is, why build a chimney like this? It seems destined to leak and it seems like it could be a major fire hazard as well. All other pics I have looked at show the flue covered in attics. I just don't understand the point of doing it half way.

seeyou, I'd like to take some time to offer my extreme thanks for all your past/present/future input. I wish I could do something for you because I feel like I owe you a favor. All the info has been greatly appreciated. Thank you!

3)Siloxane is the sealer we use. I'm sure there are others. Don't get it at the home center. Go to a brick yard and ask them. You just apply it with a pump sprayer. Very DIY'er friendly if you can get on the roof. The water does not penetrate the brick with the sealer on it.

4)It's inexpensive to do it this way, but it's not necessarily wrong if some simple rules are followed. But, without a savy supervisor watching, some corners can and often do get cut. As long as the metal flue is installed correctly with the proper clearances, it's not a fire hazard. But if it's not flashed right, it will leak.

Hope you get it under control. The leaning concerns me some. Glad I could help.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:21 PM   #27
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Thanks again for the reply.

Is Siloxane relatively expensive? Is this a good or bad deal ($130 plus shipping for 5 gallons): http://www.troweltrades.net/product_...=google-simple

How much do you apply to the brick when applying it? Should it go around the entire chase or the upper portion.

The leaning chase concerns me as well. I figure with a good storm with some strong winds it could possibly tumble over onto the roof causing even more extensive damage. Is this the concern you have or is there something else I am missing?

Thanks again!!!
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:57 PM   #28
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Thanks again for the reply.

Is Siloxane relatively expensive? Is this a good or bad deal ($130 plus shipping for 5 gallons): http://www.troweltrades.net/product_...=google-simple

How much do you apply to the brick when applying it? Should it go around the entire chase or the upper portion.

The leaning chase concerns me as well. I figure with a good storm with some strong winds it could possibly tumble over onto the roof causing even more extensive damage. Is this the concern you have or is there something else I am missing?

Thanks again!!!
That's a good price. I've bookmarked it for future reference. However, you won't need a full gallon per application. Here's a link to gallon quantities:

http://www.grantlogancopper.com/inde...product_id=981

The chase probably won't fall over any time soon, but as it moves the leaking will worsen, accelerating the structure damage.
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:51 PM   #29
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I've got another question regarding the brick. If the brick did go all the way down on the backside (the side on the house) would it not eventually stop where the fireplace is and leak in or on the fireplace? I just don't see how the water would disperse if the brick continued all the way down just to the fireplace.

Also, the link above to the S31 siloxane has the following directions:

Quote:
APPLICATION: A silane/siloxane base impregnator of excellent stability against alkali, infiltration of dirt and water, frost damage, and efflorescence for all interior and exterior natural and cast stone. HMK S31 is an invisible below surface seal, with 100% vapor permeability which leaves a natural appearance. Note: Do not allow S31 to dry on surface since cured S31 may need mechanical removal. DIRECTIONS: Apply to chemically clean and dry surface with natural bristle brush, or HMK ZI70-171 Sealing Brushes. One or two thin and even applications wet on wet are usually sufficient. Allow 5-10 minutes between each application for penetration. Repeat process for more absorbent surfaces. Thoroughly remove excess S31 5-10 minutes after last application with white terry cloth; add solvent if necessary to facilitate the excess removal. Protect from water/rain for the first 2-3 days curing time. S31 may require up to 28 days to fully cure under very dry air conditions. A humid, but not wet, climate helps and expedites the curing process. Do not apply S31 with temperatures above 85 F or below 50 F. COVERAGE: 35 - 65 sqft., 3-6 square meters per 1 liter (34 oz.) container. WARNING: Chemical product. Contains Turpentine Substitute. Flammable. Use with adequate ventilation. Avoid eye and skin contact. If exposed, wash/flush with water. Keep out of reach of children. See Material Safety Data Sheet. STORAGE: Store in cool place. Keep lid tightly closed. TESTING: Perform testing on a sample tile and actual installation to determine number of coats necessary to protect particular stone, visual appearance of tile after S31 application and stain protection against water and dirt infiltration. DISCLAIMER: Limitation of liability: The liability of HMK for defective products and any claims for damages whatsoever is limited to the purchase price of the products. HMK shall not be liable for any consequential damages. No other warranty or representation is made or implied.
Seems confusing to me.....

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Old 04-08-2011, 01:49 PM   #30
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If the brick did go all the way down on the backside (the side on the house) would it not eventually stop where the fireplace is and leak in or on the fireplace? I just don't see how the water would disperse if the brick continued all the way down just to the fireplace.

OK - here's where terminology is very important. You have a pre-fab fireplace and chimney. In your case, the chimney is the metal pipe. You have a wooden chase built around the fireplace. That chase has brick veneer on it. That brick veneer could have been vinyl or any other type of siding or masonry. Everything outside of the metal prefabricated chimney is strictly decoration.

If you had a full masonry fireplace, the whole thing would be built out of brick/block/stone. It would have much mass and need it's own foundation.

A lot of people don't know the difference between the two type units. All they know is they bought a house with a wood burning fireplace. What you have is much, much cheaper to install than a full masonry fireplace. Maintained and operated properly, it's no less safe and in some instances can be more efficient. But they are two different animals and the flashing details are completely different. But many roofers just see a chimney and can't differentiate between the two.

What's so confusing about the installation instructions? I'll translate.

excellent stability against alkali, infiltration of dirt and water, frost damage, and efflorescence

It keeps the water out. It also does other things.

HMK S31 is an invisible below surface seal, with 100% vapor permeability


It penetrates instead of dwelling on the surface. If water gets in some other way it can get back out. You can't see it after it's applied.

Brush it on. Wait 10 mins. Brush on another coat. Remove any runs. Don't get it on anything you don't want it on. Don't let it rain on it for 2-3 days. Don't apply above 85F or below 50F. Don't drink it or smoke when you're applying it. Wear gloves.

Look at any can of paint. Pretty much the same instructions. Good luck.

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