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Old 01-02-2013, 04:54 PM   #106
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Old 01-02-2013, 05:11 PM   #107
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Done, and done, and done. Maybe you can do a switcharoo on your helpful but now-too-exposing post there, too.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:54 PM   #108
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Hren, from what I read it seems you say you don't have any insulation in your attic. Is that really true? Could it be that your attic doesn't get very hot in the summer because it is being air-conditioned due to lack of insulation?
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:04 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by AtticBaffled View Post
Hren, from what I read it seems you say you don't have any insulation in your attic. Is that really true? Could it be that your attic doesn't get very hot in the summer because it is being air-conditioned due to lack of insulation?
It's true that we have no insulation. As far as we know, we have none in the house at all. (It's a wood frame house, with plaster and lathe walls, and pine wood floors with no subfloors.)

We also don't have central air. (Nor, to answer a question in another post, do we have a whole house humidifier. We have forced air heat, if that matters to anyone. )

We have two window AC units; one in the living room on the first floor and one in the bedroom on the second floor. The bedroom has a door, and the AC is only used overnight with the door closed. The first-floor unit cools a fairly open space downstairs, as our living room, dining room, and foyer have giant open doorways between them. On the other hand, it's less than 500 square feet for those three spaces all together.

So, to respond to your original guess, yes and no. Yes, the attic is likely drawing air from the house already. But as there are no roof vents, it's not drawing much. Also, we use circulating fans in the attic windows 3 seasons out of the year. So there's a lot more of a chance that the air is coming in and out through those windows, and not from below and up through the floor or the attic door.

Once a ridge vent is added to the picture, if proponents of venting are to be believed, the house will be trying to vent MUCH MORE air our of the roof. And that air will be pulled far more forcefully from below. Without soffits, it'll be pulled from the rest of the house.

My plan, since we are being FORCED to add a ridge vent against our will, is to leave the attic windows slightly open all year round with little vents in them to keep the squirrels out. (Have I told you all about the 3 squirrels that got trapped in the attic when the roofers closed up the big hole? Fun!)

How very stupid this all is. But we don't seem to have much choice.

Last edited by Hren; 01-02-2013 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:35 PM   #110
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Once a ridge vent is added to the picture, if proponents of venting are to be believed, the house will be trying to vent MUCH MORE air our of the roof. And that air will be pulled far more forcefully from below. Without soffits, it'll be pulled from the rest of the house.
I don't think it is going to be quite so dramatic. If it were my house, I would look to block off the areas where air can move from your heated space into the attic space. In an old house, there can be many places where this happens. I'd start by treating that door to your attic like an exterior door and weatherstrip it accordingly. Then find ways to seal around all ceiling light fixtures, all electrical switches and outlets (especially if your house is balloon framed, but even if not). See what you can seal from above in the attic. Something like this on a really cold day http://www.smokepencil.com/ can help you test suspect areas to see air movement.

Obviously you should also look to block any areas where outside air can get into your heated space. It's tough on an old house like that, but any place you can seal up will help.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:51 PM   #111
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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I don't think it is going to be quite so dramatic. If it were my house, I would look to block off the areas where air can move from your heated space into the attic space. ...Obviously you should also look to block any areas where outside air can get into your heated space. It's tough on an old house like that, but any place you can seal up will help.
We are huge believers in sealing our space well. I have spent hours tracking down individual drafts our doors. We've got very good quality aluminum (not vinyl!) triple-track storm windows (one of the best decisions a previous owner made) and decent storm doors, the latter of which I've reinforced with a few different kinds of weatherstripping. We will be replacing the storm doors at some point soon.

Our best heating/cooling coup is a recent one. We re-hung the heavy swinging door that goes between the kitchen and the rest of the downstairs living space. It had been stored in the attic. The kitchen is unheated, as many original kitchens were since the stove is in the there. Our kitchen also has an exterior door, and a door to the basement which also leads to another exterior door. By blocking the air exchange from the largely-open-plan rest of the downstairs, suddenly our kitchen is freezing and we can keep our thermostat 2-4 degrees lower! It's awesome!

I can't wait until the Summer to see how the AC stays in the living space, and the oven heat stays in the kitchen!

Now should I tell you all about how I also regulate temperature with strategic use of blackout and sheer shades, too? Sorry to be kinda nerdy about such a boring topic. But I'm very proud of how we keep the house temperature regulated using such a relatively low amount of electricity and gas.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:25 PM   #112
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Interesting thread.
Personally we've always run ridge vent as required by local code.We also include a price for venting the soffit so
the HO can add to the contract or complete at a future date.
Most older homes have some air leaking in through the attic walls and/or soffit areas to provide some air flow
without adding the soffit vents.
Have you ever seen the black dust streaks below old soffit/trim joints?Sure sign of escaping air/heat.
We have the HO monitor the attic area for wet plywood and/or frost balls on the protruding nails before
making a decision on needed soffit venting.
If you plan on adding insulation at some point,you'll be happy to have that ridge vent already installed.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:30 PM   #113
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Something like this on a really cold day http://www.smokepencil.com/ can help you test suspect areas to see air movement.
By the way, if anyone's got an old Lionel train set, you can use your engine to do the same thing!

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If you plan on adding insulation at some point,you'll be happy to have that ridge vent already installed.
No insulation plans for us! We've not had any need for it yet. The stuff is more trouble than it's worth, especially in an old house like ours.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:01 PM   #114
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Another day, another fun problem. And I need yalls help again.

This morning the crew doesn't show up for work. When I ask this guy what's up, he gives me four different answers. Then settles on one: he has "some issues" he needs to discuss with me about the lower roofs. He wants a meeting. I'm not available today, so I tell him to email me details. I have to basically beg to get him to do it.

Once he sends the emails, the issues are now with all of the dormers, and with all of the lower roofs. The siding shingles above them are too high, so the standard flashing doesn't reach them, and many are rotting. He wants to talk about options (materials, color, spacing) with me for replacing them and come to an agreement on price.

Now, I'm just a simple country lawyer*, but it seems to me that this should have been included in the original job estimate/contract? I mean, it's not like the siding shingles are hidden. He didn't have to remove the old roof to see where they are. And they haven't moved since he quoted me the job.

Am I the one being nutty here, or is this unreasonable?

And before you ask, no, there's nothing in the contract stipulating how to handle additional costs / new issues. Which is an oversight on my part. I've insisted on that in my other contracts and we rushed this one because of the insurance issues. But then again, this isn't a "new" issue.


*This is a Matlock joke. I'm not actually a lawyer. Right now I wish I were.

Last edited by Hren; 01-03-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:49 PM   #115
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Originally Posted by Hren View Post
Another day, another fun problem. And I need yalls help again.

This morning the crew doesn't show up for work. When I ask this guy what's up, he gives me four different answers. Then settles on one: he has "some issues" he needs to discuss with me about the lower roofs. He wants a meeting. I'm not available today, so I tell him to email me details. I have to basically beg to get him to do it.

Once he sends the emails, the issues are now with all of the dormers, and with all of the lower roofs. The siding shingles above them are too high, so the standard flashing doesn't reach them, and many are rotting. He wants to talk about options (materials, color, spacing) with me for replacing them and come to an agreement on price.

Now, I'm just a simple country lawyer*, but it seems to me that this should have been included in the original job estimate/contract? I mean, it's not like the siding shingles are hidden. He didn't have to remove the old roof to see where they are. And they haven't moved since he quoted me the job.

Am I the one being nutty here, or is this unreasonable?

And before you ask, no, there's nothing in the contract stipulating how to handle additional costs / new issues. Which is an oversight on my part. I've insisted on that in my other contracts and we rushed this one because of the insurance issues. But then again, this isn't a "new" issue.


*This is a Matlock joke. I'm not actually a lawyer. Right now I wish I were.
So,,,this is something that came up today ? I mean how long has this cat been on the damn roof ? This is getting to be very annoying and I am not the homeowner.

As is with all contracts there are realistic issues "Unforeseen" But as long as this has been going on there IMO isn't too much not seen thus far.

Its simple salesmanship,,,you have a roof,,you look at the roof and ALL of its components.He is SUPPOSED to be the solution but IMO keeps himself out of the solution an in the problem.

When I look at roofs,siding,gutters or other structural components I look at everything from personal property on the ground in the workspace all the way up to the chimney cap.(And everything in between) That's a part of contracting.

Its my job to make sure there is nothing unseen and everything is processed accordingly within my contracts.

I have the unforeseen in my contracts and they are typically for additional layers,bracing issues,truss/rafter problems etc.Pretty much things that are not visible due to the fact the roof isn't removed yet.

All of the "Visible or seen " issues should have already been addressed.I don't know what kind of cookie cutter contractor you have there but this is pathetic. IMO of course.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:02 PM   #116
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I really think this is a case of him now trying to do the job "right" after all the issues he has had with you. I don't think this is an oversight or some type of scam. I think he would not have addressed any of that if you had not started asking questions. And I'm thinking it probably would have passed inspection as well. So now he's trying to do the job he should have quoted you in the first place, but since he didn't, he wants more $. If he were a stand-up guy he would at least do it at a lower rate to just help him cover costs (not to add profit to the job). Plus, at this point I'm guessing he wants this job to be over with as much as you do. I'm surprised this has taken as long as it has. The roofers I see around here would have a job like thad done in 2 or 3 days.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:17 PM   #117
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I am shocked your even considering letting him do more work.

We rarely do siding, we will make sure the customer knows if there are issues with it though if thats the case. My guys are there to roof, find a siding guy if you want that done. The exception is if its a very small area that needs to be done. For example, an old wood shingle wall that has no exsisting z bar. But this doesnt come up that much. In an area saturarted with 1000 roofers most HO are going with the low to mid bids, if i have to price in siding then i will starve from lack of work.

Most of our customers do not even want all the bad wood replaced, doing a job in Costa Mesa now that specifically said no bad wood to be done. How do you reason with people like that. I either do the roof and we eat or we starve. Your roofer chose not to bid it, you should have at least been made aware of it. The desicion should have been left up to you to ignore it for now or get a siding guy now. Your roofer probably does not have the experience to do siding and i wouldnt let him touch it now...or i would monitor every move and at the first sign of trouble get rid of him. But i doute you want to sit there and watch his every move, i know i wouldnt.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:23 PM   #118
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


We have to watch his every move anyway. So far we have had to:

1) have him remove all of the fascia his "carpenter" put up and re-do it all because none of the joints were flush, and much of it was radically not level
2) make him promise to re-do the soffit repair, as he did not use the matching materials we contracted for
3) make him send the workers back to add nails to the shingles, which they applied only 3 nails to in some spots.
4) make him spot check all shingle work every evening when the workers are done
5) make him get his men to use adhesive on the shingles above the flashing, rather than nailing through it

And the king of them all:

6) make him stop work to explain why his men were adding ridge vents when they're not in the contract and were never even discussed!

I agree-- I'm crazy to let him do any more work on the roof. But we have an insurance deadline, and he was one of only three people that we could even get over to our house for an estimate. I don't think we could get someone else, especially someone to take over a half-done job, in the time we have left before they cancel our insurance. They'd never guarantee the work, since it was started by someone else. So we'd be left with a who-knows-what roof with no warranty against poor workmanship.

This is NJ, post Sandy. Home repair people of any kind are massively overbooked. We called around 10 roofers/contractors total. Most never returned our repeated calls at all. A few made appointments and didn't show. One of the three used the word "vinyl" which gets you a 10-minute major in my house!

Amazingly, this guy seemed the most knowledgeable. He talked to us about the different wood species that beadboard was historically made from, and he scampered onto the roof to show us how inflexible the old shingles were, and how rotten the sheathing and fascia were. He talked about how it was obvious that we loved our historic house, and how he wanted to help us restore it back to proper condition after the storm damage. He seemed like a great choice!

By the end of this evening, after about 15 emails, I have finally told him that he must replace any wood siding that he damages or has to remove in the course of doing the roofing. And I have told him that I will not pay extra for that, as he should have assessed the job better before he signed the contract, and I'm not paying for his mistake. I have not authorized him to do any other work on our siding.

Oh-- did I ever mention that after I complained about the damage his men were causing to my paint and siding by not properly protecting the house while they stripped the roof shingles, he told me he could give me a great price on repainting the whole house?!?!?! THIS MAN IS WACKADOO!

Last edited by Hren; 01-03-2013 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:49 PM   #119
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We have to watch his every move anyway. So far we have had to:

1) have him remove all of the fascia his "carpenter" put up and re-do it all because none of the joints were flush, and much of it was radically not level
2) make him promise to re-do the soffit repair, as he did not use the matching materials we contracted for
3) make him send the workers back to add nails to the shingles, which they applied only 3 nails to in some spots.
4) make him spot check all shingle work every evening when the workers are done
5) make him get his men to use adhesive on the shingles above the flashing, rather than nailing through it

And the king of them all:

6) make him stop work to explain why his men were adding ridge vents when they're not in the contract and were never even discussed!

I agree-- I'm crazy to let him do any more work on the roof. But we have an insurance deadline, and he was one of only three people that we could even get over to our house for an estimate. I don't think we could get someone else, especially someone to take over a half-done job, in the time we have left before they cancel our insurance. They'd never guarantee the work, since it was started by someone else. So we'd be left with a who-knows-what roof with no warranty against poor workmanship.

This is NJ, post Sandy. Home repair people of any kind are massively overbooked. We called around 10 roofers/contractors total. Most never returned our repeated calls at all. A few made appointments and didn't show. One of the three used the word "vinyl" which gets you a 10-minute major in my house!

Amazingly, this guy seemed the most knowledgeable. He talked to us about the different wood species that beadboard was historically made from, and he scampered onto the roof to show us how inflexible the old shingles were, and how rotten the sheathing and fascia were. He talked about how it was obvious that we loved our historic house, and how he wanted to help us restore it back to proper condition after the storm damage. He seemed like a great choice!

By the end of this evening, after about 15 emails, I have finally told him that he must replace any wood siding that he damages or has to remove in the course of doing the roofing. And I have told him that I will not pay extra for that, as he should have assessed the job better before he signed the contract, and I'm not paying for his mistake. I have not authorized him to do any other work on our siding.

Oh-- did I ever mention that after I complained about the damage his men were causing to my paint and siding by not properly protecting the house while they stripped the roof shingles, he told me he could give me a great price on repainting the whole house?!?!?! THIS MAN IS WACKADOO!
Need any tune ups or brake repairs ? Maybe fix that dishwasher that sometimes skips the rinse cycle ? Sounds like you could keep him around for a while.Its really not a joking matter but sometimes humor helps relieve some tension.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:14 AM   #120
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I need to ask for help, once again! I don’t know how I’d be getting through this without you folks chiming in with corrections, alternate points of view, and general support. I really appreciate it.

As you know, I’ve got a quirky roof line. Here’s the blurry Google Maps image of it.



The 4 pink lines are hips. They meet at the chimney, which is the highest point on the house. The 2 red lines are the highest ridges on the house. They are just slightly lower than the chimney. The 2 yellow lines are the dormer ridges, which are lower than the red ridges.

The roofer cut into all 4 of the red AND yellow ridges to install vents. I pointed out to him that we have no soffit vents, and asked where the intake would come from. His response: “My opinion is that either of the ridge vents can serve as intake as they are positioned in different direction; i don't think that installing intake for the suffit [sic] or vent window will make any difference.”

When I suggested that my research had said that using ridge vents for both intake and exhaust was considered improper installation, he had no response.

*sigh*

So, here’s my question. Am I right that the red lines should be the only ridge vents? And if so, how should he go about patching the other two vent holes which his men have already cut? From some things he’s said, I believe he just intends to run a new course of shingles over the holes.

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