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Old 12-30-2012, 08:07 PM   #76
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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That's the problem, codes are sometimes tricky to interpret when it comes to old construction (like your strapping). A really stupid roofer with no understanding of old construction might decide to tear off all your decking AND strapping and replace with 5/8 OSB so it is similar to new construction. That may be to code in your area so I guess someone could call that "proper", but your current roof with horizontal strapping every 5" or 6" and 5/8" plywood on top is waaaaaaay stronger no matter what the orientation of the plywood.
I think you probably have a very solid roof deck, better than most houses out there. The nailing on the patched area is ugly and lazy, but if the roof is already on, I don't know that it's worth redoing over that. As I said before, I would be more concerned about how the shingles were nailed, the flashing, and the valleys. That is what is more likely to cause you problems.

I guess the most logical question might be how long ago the original shake roof was removed and the plywood installed ? And see if by chance a member of "This old house" roofed it.

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Old 12-30-2012, 08:12 PM   #77
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Honestly tho,,,I asked a "Old Timer" roofer who has been in business since 1928 about this thread.He is pushing 100 and he just laughed and said why would you install plywood vertical ? There is no logical "Structural" benefit of doing it.Dick said to me "There are hack installations everywhere" most are hidden and will never be revealed"
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #78
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Dick said to me "There are hack installations everywhere" most are hidden and will never be revealed"
Ahh, but if they are never revealed are they really hack installations? And was he talking about others, or was admitting to past sins?

I guess I have a bit of a pet peeve when people pick apart other's work when sometimes the work actually works. I watch pretty much all the auto customization/restoration/hot rod shows and sometimes they bring in an old car that looks really nice. They then proceed to have the body media blasted and find some old DIY bodywork underneath, like a piece of sheet metal riveted on and bondo'd over. They make a big deal about how "wrong" that is, yet it was "old" bodywork (which means it lasted a while) and it looked pretty damn good before they media blasted it. BTW, I recently did some bodywork on my truck and I welded in the sheet metal (the "proper" way), but I wouldn't dare pick on someone for using rivets if they can make it work.

And on that particular roof with all that horizontal strapping running across the rafters and supporting the plywood, I honestly don't think the orientation of the plywood is going to make any difference. And I wouldn't pick on someone for thinking the proper way to install the plywood to strapping might be to run it lengthwise across the strapping. I can see how someone might logically come to that conclusion if they thought about it. Then again, based on the nailing, he probably didn't really put much thought into it
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:16 PM   #79
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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I can see how someone might logically come to that conclusion if they thought about it. Then again, based on the nailing, he probably didn't really put much thought into it

Agreed

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Old 12-31-2012, 12:18 AM   #80
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


The plywood is much stronger perpendicular to the rafters/supports (without strapping), I'm not arguing that. I have posted this comparison a few times before to show the great difference in load-carrying ability per orientation; Table 2; http://www.trioforest.com/pdf/Load-Span_Tables.pdf

My concern was the OP is having a difficult enough time without showing what could be the possible weakness of the existing application of the plywood orientation (empathy/discretion) that is not being changed in the near future. It's stayed on the roof so far and I've seen worse. To what end or purpose... or professionalism.

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Old 12-31-2012, 01:40 AM   #81
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Many times, I have replaced cedar, or tile, roofs with asphalt, laid the plywood vertically over the strapping. But first I check the fixing of the strapping, often it needs to be re-nailed because the 100 year old ones have corroded in places. I make sure end joins are supported, by either moving one of the old boards to suit, or fitting a new one, I have never had, or even heard of, problems caused by doing this. I have even seen it specified in architects' plans for renovation jobs. We also install vertically when replacing long run steel roofs with asphalt; we even do it on new builds for the Mormons, all their roofs here have horizontal supports over the trusses.(the steel framed part still needed vertical, then horizontal 4x2s installed when the pic was taken).
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:01 AM   #82
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Many times, I have replaced cedar, or tile, roofs with asphalt, laid the plywood vertically over the strapping. But first I check the fixing of the strapping, often it needs to be re-nailed because the 100 year old ones have corroded in places. I make sure end joins are supported, by either moving one of the old boards to suit, or fitting a new one, I have never had, or even heard of, problems caused by doing this. I have even seen it specified in architects' plans for renovation jobs. We also install vertically when replacing long run steel roofs with asphalt; we even do it on new builds for the Mormons, all their roofs here have horizontal supports over the trusses.(the steel framed part still needed vertical, then horizontal 4x2s installed when the pic was taken).
Love that steel.Very,very nice.

But I could agree with you about running vertical plywood if as you said certain modification or accomidations are made to add to the strengthening/support aspect.As Wrongdave pointed out that if thought is put into it some logic is found.

I can agree that a lot of this thread is factual and IMO some talented and great minds within the industry have posted valuable comments.But sadly all of this is based on pretty much speculation after seeing only a couple mediocre pictures of an attic space.Don't take offense Hren its nothing intended towards you in any way.

I can also agree that its quite possible that the strapping and supports follow suggested guidelines and are in fact "Structurally sound".

I also think we can ALL agree that the O.P's contractor might be a knucklehead.As with every homeowner I feel everyone on this thread and most on this forum want to see homeowners get their money's worth and be provided with a top notch installation.

I also can agree that most professionals here on this thread and forum wish that the homeowners would have contractors who are as equally "Quality Driven" as we are.But then again if that were the case these forums would likely not exist and you would not be sitting here debating and trading paint on this thread.

I hope maybe Hren might be generous enough to provide some more pix of her attic.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:35 PM   #83
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


These are pictures from about a year ago. So you can see how the "old" roof was put on. We were told it was installed in 2008. In the last picture, you can see that there was a leak by the chimney. We had that fixed shortly after we moved in. (Incidentally, the new roofer didn't replace any of that damaged sheathing.)

Last edited by Hren; 01-09-2013 at 08:09 AM. Reason: privacy
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:07 PM   #84
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Hmm. Diagonal sheathing in the valleys. Did you get the chimney re-flashed with the new roof, earlier? Appears a few different rafter spacings, messes with my earlier idea- before the latest pictures;
Is the roofer walking on your roof? I hope so… lol. So as he walks across the surface stepping between the rafter spacing sometimes, has his foot gone through the plywood/strapping yet? With all his weight concentrated on one footstep, and landing between rafter bearings, it must be strong enough to support him. If he weighs 70#, that area will support that much weight, at least for short term. Your State has different snow loads for your location, from 20#-50# per square foot. So the shingle/ply/strapping combo will support at least 70# with this simple test. Ask the roofer if he noticed any
”soft” spots while walking around. Or have him walk the whole roof and you mark them in the attic for future additional support later, if concerned. Pay extra for his time.

Adding the combined loads (live/dead), with the on-center spacing, species of wood, and rafter ties/ridge height adjustment factor will give the safe span of sized rafters: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic...?bu2=undefined

Your State has different snow loads for various locations, use yours for the tables in the previous link; https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q..._bwJfXpc0YP07g

I would be concerned about the lower shed roofs with a heavy snow load rather than the steeper higher roofs which shed the snow easier.
“Multilevel roofs (when the lower roof is subject to an accumulation of sliding or drifting snow or accumulation of snowmelt) and “Valleys (subject to substantial snow or ice
accumulation due to drifting, sliding or melting)” From/example given; https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...lpoLI0y_E8w56w
Possibly the hip/valley rafter on the higher roof as early framing never sized-up those rafters to meet today’s codes, unless supported mid-span. But that’s another story…


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Old 12-31-2012, 10:56 PM   #85
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Wow-- what a wealth of information! Thank you, GBR. Let me see if I can address some of what you wrote.

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Hmm. Diagonal sheathing in the valleys. Did you get the chimney re-flashed with the new roof, earlier?
We only moved here at the end of 2010. I don't know what the previous owners did or didn't do when (they claim) they had the roof redone in 2008. There was no permit pulled for any work they did on the house, so there's no way for us to know. We had the chimney re-stuccoed and reflashed about a year ago, as it was chipped and leaking. Roofers walked on the roof to do that.

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Is the roofer walking on your roof? I hope so… lol. So as he walks across the surface stepping between the rafter spacing sometimes, has his foot gone through the plywood/strapping yet?
He's climbed on the porch roof himself. His employees have been all over the other parts of the roof. To my knowledge, no one has broken through anything. We do have broken strapping, but I believe both broken spots were already broken when we moved in.

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Ask the roofer if he noticed any ”soft” spots while walking around. Or have him walk the whole roof and you mark them in the attic for future additional support later, if concerned. Pay extra for his time.
This guy should count himself lucky when I pay him the amount we contracted for! Seriously, getting him to come to the house to do the job has been hard enough. I doubt he'd walk around the roof and give us honest feedback. His story changes every time we talk, depending on what point he's trying to make. ("The old shingles are so brittle, they need to all be replaced." But when I complain that they're hitting the house as they fall, it's all "they're soft and bendable, don't worry.")

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Adding the combined loads (live/dead), with the on-center spacing, species of wood, and rafter ties/ridge height adjustment factor will give the safe span of sized rafters:
I'd gone through these charts before myself, but unfortunately I don't know what kind of wood the rafters are made from. Also...what is "safe span"? Span of what? I didn't really understand this part of the code.

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Your State has different snow loads for various locations, use yours for the tables in the previous link;
I found this memo online the other day. We're either 20 or 25 -- we seem to be right on the line. Luckily, we're not in the snow belt. Not that we can't get a freak storm. But we typically don't get a ton of snow. We're only 12 miles or so West of NYC.

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I would be concerned about the lower shed roofs with a heavy snow load rather than the steeper higher roofs which shed the snow easier.
“Multilevel roofs (when the lower roof is subject to an accumulation of sliding or drifting snow or accumulation of snowmelt) and “Valleys (subject to substantial snow or ice
accumulation due to drifting, sliding or melting)” From/example given;
From that I'd worry most about the porch roof. But it has a decent slope, and it gets some overhang protection. We haven't seen any evidence that it's been having any trouble with the load. No sagging, creaking, cracking, etc. It seems like a decent porch roof!
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:58 PM   #86
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I wish my attic was as clear as yours.How do you fight the temptation of using it for storage ? But then again there is not much clearance to really utilize the space unless you were a Hobbit. :-)
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:34 PM   #87
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I wish my attic was as clear as yours.How do you fight the temptation of using it for storage ? But then again there is not much clearance to really utilize the space unless you were a Hobbit. :-)
In fact, there is a special room just for storage! It's called a trunk room. Which was generally a small, finished room in an otherwise unfinished attic. Ours has an original gas fixture for light (no longer working), but no heat. And we do indeed use it for limited storage.

Overall, my goal in life is to not have many things that need to be stored. Cause if I'm not using it, why do I own it?!

You can just see into the trunk room in the pictures I posted previously. But here's a closer look:








The previous owners, on the other hand, had the attic (and basement) so crammed with stuff we could barely see the walls!




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Old 01-01-2013, 04:15 PM   #88
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In fact, there is a special room just for storage! It's called a trunk room. Which was generally a small, finished room in an otherwise unfinished attic. Ours has an original gas fixture for light (no longer working), but no heat. And we do indeed use it for limited storage.

Overall, my goal in life is to not have many things that need to be stored. Cause if I'm not using it, why do I own it?!

You can just see into the trunk room in the pictures I posted previously. But here's a closer look:








The previous owners, on the other hand, had the attic (and basement) so crammed with stuff we could barely see the walls!



I have to admit I like the flashlight holder in the last picture.

I am not too sure about leaving kerosene in a hot attic,,,or what ever is in that yellow fuel container.My wife keeps our home very,very clean.I do really good with keeping the garage organized but you would never believe the way my attic looks compared to our home,,,but then again I am in charge of the attic and its quite a mess because of it I assume.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:20 PM   #89
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I have to admit I like the flashlight holder in the last picture.
You mean this flashlight holder?



That's the last remaining original gas fixture arm in the house. The rest were all removed at some point and capped. And then splattered with plaster and paint over the many years. I have a goal to replace them all with matching arms, and appropriate glass globes. If I ever complete the 6,423 things on the list above that, I'll be sure to get it done!
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:26 PM   #90
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Personally I would move it to another spot where one once was.I wonder if it is brass ? Maybe only for cosmetic but I think it would be cool to keep.The only reason I would move it is because its a very nice piece that seems original for the home and IMO its going to waste being stuck upstairs and out of view.

Yay,,,I am the 2013th viewer of this thread,,,,I feel special. :-P

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