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Old 12-29-2012, 05:46 PM   #61
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Btw,,,,If your area was declared a disaster area or classified as "Catastrophe" then your insurance provider cannot cancel you until a year after the declaration.

I have a couple friends who are in an organization who helps homeowners repair their properties after being taken advantage of by hacks.Lemme explain your situation and see if they can help because they are in Jersey working Sandy.
Thank you! Unfortunately, we may not qualify. Apparently, insurance companies have 60 days from the day they sign you within which they may cancel the policy for any reason. After that, they cannot cancel you without cause (late payments, failure to respond to notices, etc). But during that 60 days, they do not have to work with you or accept your attempts at compliance.

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Old 12-29-2012, 06:18 PM   #62
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Fixed it, thanks! Plywood orientation depends on the strength of the 1x's to transmit live loads to the rafters (appear to be 16"o.c.). Not a SE, beyond me... though if the strapping is close/closer than the plywood span rating- eg. 16/24 = 16" on center framing for floor, 24" on center for roofs; it wouldn't make a difference, would it? Only the penetration of the plywood fastener into solid wood (rafter) as you said. Shingle strapping = 10" o.c.? would be plenty of support for either orientation...

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Old 12-29-2012, 06:29 PM   #63
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Fixed it, thanks! Plywood orientation depends on the strength of the 1x's to transmit live loads to the rafters (appear to be 16"o.c.). Not a SE, beyond me... though if the strapping is close/closer than the plywood span rating- eg. 16/24 = 16" on center framing for floor, 24" on center for roofs; it wouldn't make a difference, would it? Only the penetration of the plywood fastener into solid wood (rafter) as you said. Shingle strapping = 10" o.c.? would be plenty of support for either orientation...

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Interesting.
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:35 PM   #64
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Though that would require backers of 1x's under the end joints for the required fastener spacing/penetration. Unless I'm interpreting the code wrong, been there/done that a few times- according to my local AHJ...

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Old 12-29-2012, 07:01 PM   #65
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Here are some more hard numbers to plug into your engineering debate. I wanna hear more!

Rafters are nominal 2x6s, inconsistent but generally 24" on center. (Also, there aren't really more than four in a row without a dormer or other irregularity. So the last one is generally shorter OC. If you get what I mean.)

Strapping are nominal 1x2s, even more inconsistent but generally 5-1/2" on center.

Plywood is 5/8" CDX.
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:08 PM   #66
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Though that would require backers of 1x's under the end joints for the required fastener spacing/penetration. Unless I'm interpreting the code wrong, been there/done that a few times- according to my local AHJ...

Gary
Ok.... so if I'm getting this, the issue you're pointing to here is that end fasteners on all four sides of the sheathing need to penetrate a certain amount of wood, and stick out into the air only a certain amount. And those little 1x2 strappings are way too thin to comply with that.

Have I got that right?

Last edited by Hren; 12-29-2012 at 07:09 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:48 PM   #67
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Hren, I think you need to realize that your roof, while not unique, is not typical of most roofs and certainly not typical of anything modern. So "what's the right way?" is a little up to interpretation, and you can easily get several opinions on it. Since they installed 5/8" plywood to patch your roof, I'm assuming the rest of your roof already had 5/8" plywood on it. You may want to look at that and see how it was installed. It sounds like this guy only needed to patch a small area.

The 1x2 strapping on your roof sounds flimsy by today's standards, but your 1x2 are probably actually 1" x 2" (different than a modern 1x2") and are likely also made of much better wood than you would buy today. They've supported and held your roof on for 100 years. That's saying something. You originally would have had wood shingles attached directly to the strapping.The plywood you have on there now should actually make the roof stronger than it was 100 years ago.

The strongest method of attachment would be to drive nails through the junctions of the strapping and the rafters, and that is what I personally would have done. That doesn't mean that your plywood is going to blow off if it is only attached to the strapping.

I really don't want to come off as defending your roofing contractor, because he clearly is doing some sloppy work. If I were in your shoes, I would be focusing on the shingle installation itself. Are the shingles aligned and nailed properly? Is the flashing adequate? Are the hips, ridges, and valleys done properly? These are the areas that are more likely to give you problems in the future.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:52 PM   #68
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Hren, I think you need to realize that your roof, while not unique, is not typical ...
Thank you for the practical response. I agree with a lot of what you wrote. And as we've moved along in this job, I've been weighing those kinds of practical thoughts with my frustration over the mounting number of corners this guy is cutting, and his refusal to admit it when faced with the evidence. I'm asking all these questions here because I want to know how much of a disaster this could be, so I can make sure it doesn't get that bad! I know there are at least 10 ways to do this job "right". I just want to make sure he's using one of them.

As for the 1x2s, they're nominal 1x2s. Not actual. I was surprised, myself. I thought the old rafters would be actual 2x6s, too, but they're not either. And if we're assuming that they're old growth wood, then yes they're gonna be a heck of a lot stronger than what we can pick up today at the Home Despot. It's part of why we bought a 100 year old house-- it's a good, solid house! This is the other reason:

picture removed
Look at that wood! Look at those windows! Aaah! House pr0n!

As for his shingle application...he and I had a long and serious conversation about it. I've had to accept that I cannot walk around the roof myself, checking each and every shingle. (Would that I could!) So I made him commit in writing to use at least 5 nails per shingle, applied in accordance with the shingle manufacturer's instructions, including complying with cold weather installation methods if applicable. And I made him commit in writing that he would make sure all flashing is intact, and installed as per the manufacturer's instructions, with the proper cement instead of nails slammed through it.

He has also agreed in writing to extend his own 10 year warranty to 30 years should any aspect of his installation void the shingle manufacturer's warranty. He's been in business around 25 years already, so there's at least a decent chance he'll stay in business for as long as I live in the house.

Last edited by Hren; 01-09-2013 at 08:09 AM. Reason: privacy
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:57 PM   #69
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Ok.... so if I'm getting this, the issue you're pointing to here is that end fasteners on all four sides of the sheathing need to penetrate a certain amount of wood, and stick out into the air only a certain amount. And those little 1x2 strappings are way too thin to comply with that.

Have I got that right?
Realistically IMPO,,,all of this can be solved by installing plywood horizontally.I have redecked some "Architects Dreams" and "Roofers Nightmares" and I have always installed plywood horizontally.

I use chalk lines so I hit my centers with CDX and the factory puts rafter and stud lines on the OSB.I fasten them on the rafters using a 3" fastener.Breaking on the rafters/centers with those 3" ring shanks ensures proper fastening and penetration into the rafter.

Maybe the roof/decking won't blow off but also IMO why take the chance ? I have seen countless roofs that the roofers did not break on the rafters/centers and the plywood warps/buckles/bows causing the shingles to rip or pull out along with the decking.

I have redecked roofs that have had 7+dormers,multiple angles,pitch,valleys etc and always ran horizontally and have never had a single issue with nail pops on the decking.I guess I could spend a couple more paragraphs trying to explain my concept or perception about how I fee, proper decking technique should be utilized.

Your roof might have been installed that way to begin with,,,but if I were in that situation (And I most certainly have been and will be again) I would feel its my duty to inform the homeowner of anything that I find that I see deemed as improper.

If my customer says "Its O.k,,,I can live with it? I would then limit my warranty to "Shingle application only workmanship warranty" I will exclude any decking issues related to "Customer Acknowledgment".The customer IS aware of existing issues related to improper decking installation.

But I WOULD install the decking I am replacing according to "Standard Practices".And the "Standard Practice" is Horizontal installation.I have replaced vertical plywood before after bringing it to the attention of the homeowner.After all they are trusting me to know "What is" and "What is not" standard installation procedure.

It amazes me how quick a homeowner will question vertical felt application but does not have any idea how a roof should be decked with plywood.And "Hren" that is not directed towards you.You are a victim searching for a life lime.

Just because the decking installation is existing does not make it proper to "Just go with it" The customer should have been made aware of this type of installation which is anything but "Standard Practice" and the choice should have been up to them to make the choice of it they want to to "Go with it" because after the customer says to "Go with it" you as a contractor has done your job and the ball is now in their court.After all it is their home.Just saying.

I guess I am just passionate about my trade or very opinionated.Maybe both. :-)

Last edited by Roofmaster417; 12-29-2012 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:32 AM   #70
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Your roof might have been installed that way to begin with,,,but if I were in that situation (And I most certainly have been and will be again) I would feel its my duty to inform the homeowner of anything that I find that I see deemed as improper.
That's precisely how we feel. And we didn't realize that we'd need to specify things like that in the contract. To me it's like being contracted to dig a ditch, finding nuclear waste in the ditch, and not informing the homeowner. "Hey, it was already there. Not our problem."

In all cases where there's a choice, I want to be told what's going on, given guidance on best practices, and left alone to make the decision.

The weird thing is, this roofer kind of did that to start with. He showed us how the old shingles were only attached with 3 nails, noted the lack of proper flashing in the valleys, and how the lack of a drip edge was rotting the fascia and decking. He used that info to convince us to go for a whole new roof. He could easily have gotten the money out of us for all new decking at the same time!
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:44 AM   #71
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I feel bad about your troubles.

This is an unfortunate situation that many of us have to consistently fight against. We have to justify why our prices are higher for the "same" thing, etc.

I don't feel like your roof was cheap or that it was a cheap bid. This contractor should've easily had the funds to make this a correct job.

This happens to way too many people too much because let's face it, most roofers are roofers because they were left with no other choice in life. I have around 200-300 roofing companies by me and I can only think of 3 I would let roof my own house.
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:01 PM   #72
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"proper" and "standard practice" are a tricky situation with a 100 year old home. The reality is there is going to be a whole lot of stuff in the home that do not meet today's proper and standard practice benchmarks. So after you decide the decking is not proper you then look at the roof framing, then the framing of the walls and floors, then the foundation and footings. And you know the plumbing and electrical in a home of that age can be a potential nightmare. Do you tear it all down back to a hole in the ground and start over?

So when you live in an older home you need to be able to live with the fact that your house doesn't meet today's building codes. And you need to be able to make smart decisions about what is good enough and what is not.

You didn't hire the best roofer out there, you didn't hire the worst either. If you look at ParagonEx's comment on how many roofers in his area he would trust, you should get the picture. Unfortunately there is a lot of mediocrity out there (I'm probably being kind with that statement). Which is why i prefer to DIY whenever practical.

Since you seem to be getting some cooperation from your roofer, you're probably best off letting him do the job he should have done in the first place. It sounds like he probably understands how to do a proper roof, but his workers either don't or he allows them to cut corners. Unfortunately that's not uncommon. Hopefully they didn't do anything that can't be fixed. If you can get the shingle manufacturer to do an inspection, that's great. If you let your contractor know you're trying to get a separate inspection, that may solve some problems by itself.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:10 PM   #73
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So after you decide the decking is not proper you then look at the roof framing, then the framing of the walls and floors, then the foundation and footings. And you know the plumbing and electrical in a home of that age can be a potential nightmare. Do you tear it all down back to a hole in the ground and start over?
I hear you. We knew what we were getting into buying a c.1908 house.

But (and it's a big but) the existing decking was put up in 2008. This isn't K&T wiring or lead pipes. If the new roofer wanted to reuse it, isn't it up to him to make sure it's properly installed?

Would you build a new deck and not check the existing footings? Would you strip paint without checking for lead? This isn't above and beyond we're talking about. This is the job.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:19 PM   #74
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So here's the critical sentence about sheathing vs supports in the New Jersey Residential Code, from TABLE R503.2.1.1(1)

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b. Panels continuous over two or more spans with long dimension perpendicular to supports
So..."supports". I'm finding nothing that specifies whether strapping is included or excluded as a support.

I think I'm officially deciding that in the case of my house, horizontal sheathing counts as a best practice, not a code requirement.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:58 PM   #75
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So here's the critical sentence about sheathing vs supports in the New Jersey Residential Code, from TABLE R503.2.1.1(1)

So..."supports". I'm finding nothing that specifies whether strapping is included or excluded as a support.

I think I'm officially deciding that in the case of my house, horizontal sheathing counts as a best practice, not a code requirement.
That's the problem, codes are sometimes tricky to interpret when it comes to old construction (like your strapping). A really stupid roofer with no understanding of old construction might decide to tear off all your decking AND strapping and replace with 5/8 OSB so it is similar to new construction. That may be to code in your area so I guess someone could call that "proper", but your current roof with horizontal strapping every 5" or 6" and 5/8" plywood on top is waaaaaaay stronger no matter what the orientation of the plywood.
I think you probably have a very solid roof deck, better than most houses out there. The nailing on the patched area is ugly and lazy, but if the roof is already on, I don't know that it's worth redoing over that. As I said before, I would be more concerned about how the shingles were nailed, the flashing, and the valleys. That is what is more likely to cause you problems.

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