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Old 12-26-2012, 07:38 PM   #16
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Hundreds of feet would cost a lot, 15 feet not so much. Either way, I would have given you your options and gone in the direction you wanted. If it was over the front door get it milled, 2 story back of the house then i would be ok with what you got. If you have historically accurate written on the contract then i think it means milled to match existing regardless of location.

It sounds like this is just a portion of your issues with the install. Hopefully they will work with you...i am sure they will if your holding $ still.

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Old 12-26-2012, 09:29 PM   #17
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Those narrow strips of filler next to the soffit boards will twist out from existing space unless T&G'd in there, or solid backed with another surface and pin nailed every 6". Because they were not primed, seasonal humidity changes will move them even more. Fascia board should have been primed... Dormer rake wall/roof flashing appears to be a trim board? Closer picture would help. Missing roof/wall metal flashing at all areas though pic. is far away... Did they not vent anywhere- no intakes or exhaust?

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Old 12-26-2012, 09:42 PM   #18
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Bottom line is this,,,,,Steep roof,walkable roof,2 straight sides,dormers,turrets,flat roofs,shingles,shakes,metal,copper,aluminum,tile,s late,3/12,5/12,8/12,10/12,24/12+,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 story or more this guy knew what the job entitled.PERIOD.

Job complexity is a P.I.T.A but its what separates the true roofers from well,,,But seriously he knew what the job looked like so its on him.

Job complexity ? Basically don't take on a job that you are not qualified to do or is out of your league.

Not braggin but this job was very complex.And we knew what it took to do the job,,,and do it right.We didn't cry cuz it was super steep and multiple stories or that we had to redeck it,,,or the fact the material left NO room for error.And the custom copper work I did.We did the job because we agreed to do it and signed a contract stating we were qualified.

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Old 12-26-2012, 09:49 PM   #19
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Those narrow strips of filler next to the soffit boards will twist out from existing space unless T&G'd in there, or solid backed with another surface and pin nailed every 6". Because they were not primed, seasonal humidity changes will move them even more. Fascia board should have been primed... Dormer rake wall/roof flashing appears to be a trim board? Closer picture would help. Missing roof/wall metal flashing at all areas though pic. is far away... Did they not vent anywhere- no intakes or exhaust?

Gary
You may be responding to the pictures of the full roof, from the front and side. If so, those are from two years ago. The new roofer has only done two days of work, and hasn't finished much. So I don't have much to show in pics yet, other than what I showed in the closeups.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #20
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Yes. I figured it was the old roof as the drip lined up on every other course, now arch. shingles. I just hope they cut out the bottom area for new metal flashing at the wall/roof and side-wall/rake roof as it looked nonexistent before. No continuous soffit venting near the fascia for optimum air-flow; scroll down to pp. 615+ http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8a...0vents&f=false

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PS. I'd get a new roofer or re-write your contract.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:32 PM   #21
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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PS. I'd get a new roofer or re-write your contract.
Thank you for suggesting rewriting the contract. I actually hadn't thought of that, and it helped a lot. All of the suggestions here are helping me a lot!

We had the roofer over today, and he was defensive and rationalized everything. In the case of the warranty-voiding nail strike, he said "the company will look for anything to void the warranty. There is no way to keep from making a mistake here and there with a nail." So I said "so you wrote us a contract that included the manufacturer warranty on the roof, even though there is no way to install a roof without voiding the warranty?" He didn't follow my logic.

Nor did he think the visible nail issues were indicative of the rest of the nails, which we can't see. He told me all of the rest of the nails were definitely fine. Apparently, he has x-ray vision.

There was actually flashing under the row of shingles in the picture I posted here. It was the original flashing that had been under the old roof. They yanked it up in order to remove the old roof, ran a row of new shingles under it, then bent it back into place, and ran a course of shingles on top of that. He seemed to think this was perfectly acceptable. Even though the flashing had giant nail holes, and two spots where it was completely split open and gnarled from where they ripped it out through the original nails!

When I was able to pull the top row of shingles off the roof with almost no effort, he simply said "well, it's not done yet!" I asked how it could possibly get better, and he said "we'll caulk it with...silicone."

He is crazy. But we are, at least partially, over a barrel here.

So, we demanded that he address all of these issues. And that he write up a list of HOW he was going to address the issues, and sign it, and add it to the contract.

We're working on that list together right now. Wish me luck!
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:49 PM   #22
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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...

Not braggin but this job was very complex.And we knew what it took to do the job,,,and do it right.We didn't cry cuz it was super steep and multiple stories or that we had to redeck it,,,or the fact the material left NO room for error.And the custom copper work I did.We did the job because we agreed to do it and signed a contract stating we were qualified.
Do you ever do work in North Jersey?! That roof is just beautiful, and your attitude is precisely what we expect from the people we hire... and never, ever get! (I miss NYC so much.)
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:39 PM   #23
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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Thank you for suggesting rewriting the contract. I actually hadn't thought of that, and it helped a lot. All of the suggestions here are helping me a lot!

We had the roofer over today, and he was defensive and rationalized everything. In the case of the warranty-voiding nail strike, he said "the company will look for anything to void the warranty. There is no way to keep from making a mistake here and there with a nail." So I said "so you wrote us a contract that included the manufacturer warranty on the roof, even though there is no way to install a roof without voiding the warranty?" He didn't follow my logic.

Nor did he think the visible nail issues were indicative of the rest of the nails, which we can't see. He told me all of the rest of the nails were definitely fine. Apparently, he has x-ray vision.

There was actually flashing under the row of shingles in the picture I posted here. It was the original flashing that had been under the old roof. They yanked it up in order to remove the old roof, ran a row of new shingles under it, then bent it back into place, and ran a course of shingles on top of that. He seemed to think this was perfectly acceptable. Even though the flashing had giant nail holes, and two spots where it was completely split open and gnarled from where they ripped it out through the original nails!

When I was able to pull the top row of shingles off the roof with almost no effort, he simply said "well, it's not done yet!" I asked how it could possibly get better, and he said "we'll caulk it with...silicone."

He is crazy. But we are, at least partially, over a barrel here.

So, we demanded that he address all of these issues. And that he write up a list of HOW he was going to address the issues, and sign it, and add it to the contract.

We're working on that list together right now. Wish me luck!
First off,,,,Congrats on the "Letter of intent" contract amendment.You are one of the very few I have heard of that knew of and applied that course of action.

I have had my roofs inspected by many building departments,housing inspectors,insurance providers,engineers and several shingle manufactures including Certainteed,Owens Corning,GAF and Tamko.All of these officials have said the same thing.If code calls for a 5 fastener pattern then 4 of the 5 fasteners must be in the nail line for the pitch of the roof.

Steeper pitch roofs require a tighter multi fastener application closer to the exposure line.Lower slope roofs are a little more lax giving more of an area to apply the fasteners.To comply with warranty restrictions and requirements the fasteners must be properly seated against the shingle.Blow throughs better classified as "Overdriven",,High nails,,better classified as "Underdriven" Angled nails better classified as "Angle driven" Low nails better classified as "Exposed" "Shiners" are all certified ways to fail an installation inspection by any manufacture and building department.

It is equally important to choose a manufacture that offers an excellent warranty combined with a contractor who offers an excellent workmanship warranty.The reason contractors give a good warranty is to give the homeowner peace of mind.Its not for them to have to use it every time it rains or some high winds come in that is well below the materials capabilities.

To have a solid workmanship warranty and the ability to offer it,stand behind it and NOT have to use it you HAVE to have ;

1.Proper shingle application over proper underlayment over suitable decking.
2.Properly placed fasteners
3.Proper flashing
4.Proper Ventilation

And for the material manufacture to stand behind their material by warranty all of these (1,2,3,4) must be in place.

B.t.w,,,if someone is going to use improper fastening technique somewhere visible to your eyes,,,then why is he going to be selfish and put his most creative touches out of sight ?

I knew there was a couple courses over that apron flashing.That type of junk makes my blood boil.That is a very vulnerable area around the windows and it needs to be flashed properly with an apron.I could never understand why anyone would reuse flashing to begin with but to reuse it and blast some nails in it boggles my mind.

The siding along the flashing should have been removed and a new apron should have been installed.And there is a way to hide fasteners when installing aprons,,but you have to take the time to learn and apply the technique.

People who install that junk makes you wonder if they are the kind of guy to install something like that on his mothers house.

Last edited by Roofmaster417; 12-27-2012 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:39 AM   #24
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


This is a great thread, please keep us updated how it works out and pics too.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:33 AM   #25
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


The thread is great because of YOU folks! I'm just the noob dealing with her first roofing job.

The roofer signed the contract amendment (or "Letter of Intent", thanks Roofmaster417!) this morning and is back on the roof fixing the issues and continuing the job. He's got more people here today, which is the first success. He himself has also been here today since the start of work. Which is a lot longer than he was here the first two days.

So...some positive movement there.

I had a followup question for you folks. I know that many people hope for their job to easily pass inspection by the town. But, I'm thinking that perhaps I should go down to the office beforehand and stress to them that we need them to be our heroes and catch anything that's amiss.

Is that pie-in-the-sky thinking? Or is it possible to make the building inspector your friend and get him/her to, in effect, advocate for your high standards? Do they look at where the nails are laid? Do they test if the shingles need hand sealing?

(If my question seems weird, it'd be useful to know that our town's code enforcement department couldn't quote me stair railing requirements without double checking the code. And they'd never heard of NJ's Rehabilitation Subcode. So...my confidence in them isn't very high!)
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:10 AM   #26
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Ok...so now I'm worried again. Here are pictures of the work they've been doing on the actual shingles. They don't look like they're staggered correctly to me. I read the GAF instructions. They're supposed to repeat every 5th row. This looks more like a random assemblage.

What do you folks think?



second picture removed

Last edited by Hren; 01-09-2013 at 08:07 AM. Reason: I calmed down a little!
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:18 AM   #27
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I could probably nit pick this project to death,,,but I won't.But does that make me a bad guy ? Not sure but I can say that there are projects like these that are handled and approached much differently.Such as;

Not abiding by OSHA regulations revised fall protection/prevention for any pitch if the gutter height is more than 6 feet off the ground.

Not causing damage to the customers personal property or other structural components such as ummmm,,,the siding that's missing a nice chunk.For sure new damage because of the fresh wood exposed.

Finishing a complete area such as ridge cap instead of relying on the overlapped shingles to keep the hips dry.

Cutting drip edge to fit instead of leaving it to flap in the wind causing damage to the installed piece.

Those things might be irrelevant but IMHPO it shows inconsistency and poor attention to detail.And not to mention lack of respect to the homeowner and the property they own.Does it mean the roofer is bad ? No,,,but it makes you wonder what else might be "Forgotten or inconsistent"

I would not only speak with the building department but I would contact the shingle manufacture and request a representative to inspect the roof for warranty compliance confirmation.

I am sure by now the roofer feels like crap but you CANNOT feel sorry o bad for wanting a roof that will last for years to come.You should not feel bad if he has to come out of pocket to redo or replace anything.Bottom line is he knew what the job entitled and required.He gained your confidence by implying he could handle the project and deliver a quality installation.You put your money on him so now its his turn to step up and deliver.How ever much that is going to cost him.

Homeowners just settle and they should not.Your paying for a service and that service needs to be to your expectations.And if not it needs to be repaired and installed over and over until it is.

Last edited by Roofmaster417; 12-28-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:30 AM   #28
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I am also sick of hearing the phrase "Fake it till you make it" in our industry.Don't take jobs that require expertise and ability.Keep your butt on the gable to gable 5/12's and leave the "Real" roofing to the pro's.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:36 AM   #29
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Those things might be irrelevant but IMHPO it shows inconsistency and poor attention to detail.And not to mention lack of respect to the homeowner and the property they own.Does it mean the roofer is bad ? No,,,but it makes you wonder what else might be "Forgotten or inconsistent"
That is almost a direct quote of me talking to the roofer yesterday! Really, I said almost exactly that to him. He didn't get it at all.

I had previously noticed everything that you listed in your post. I've already got a commitment to fix that big chunk-o-shingle that's missing.

I'm keeping documentation of everything I see, hear, or notice while they're working. All of those things were on there. I was even Googling to figure out what kind of safety restraints, noise protection, and lighting the workers should have. They have none. And they worked in the dark on the roof.

I hadn't realized I could ask someone from GAF to inspect the roof. Is that a separate cost? How does that work?
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:48 AM   #30
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You can call GAF and schedule an inspection.No there should not be a cost,,,its not in my area anyway.But they will jump on it because its their product and they will be providing a warranty on materials.

Not sure if a homeowner can do anything about not wearing a harness except request they wear them.On my contracts it states that the job site will conform to OSHA regulations.That makes the customer feel better if they have a super steep roof.But regardless it lets them know your safety concious and you take steps to abide and your workers safety is important to you.

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