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Old 01-11-2013, 01:12 PM   #181
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I've only lived in Jersey for 2 years. So I have no idea what the rules used to be.

But I have no problem with needing a permit for a roofing job. I believe in the permit system. I think it makes sense to have a central, local, municipally controlled and operated group making sure that codes/laws/etc are being followed.

I think permits and inspections are a great safety net for homeowners, who shouldn't have to be well-versed in the Building Code and Residential Code books themselves. And it sets the bar for tradespeople, many of whom seem to have no other authority checking, correcting, and updating their practices. (There is no continuing education requirement to keep one's contractor registration!)

The problem I have is that these municipal departments often seem to be poorly funded, understaffed, and in some cases under trained. So, for an example of being understaffed, since one person is sick my roof inspection gets delayed for an entire week. That means that the main portion of the roof will have been on my house for at least 15 days before an inspector signs off on the job. That just doesn't seem correct to me.

My other problem is that the permit requirements are vague, and not applied consistently. For example, I was told I had to change my porch stair footings to the current 36" depth requirement if I wanted to replace my crumbling stairs. Even though the existing concrete footing has been there for decades. But, conversely, the previous owner passed a permit inspection for the back deck stairs with the stringers resting on small pieces of slate above bare dirt!

But less-than-perfect application of the rules doesn't sway my original point. I really do believe in the permit system.

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Old 01-11-2013, 03:45 PM   #182
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Permits for residential re-roofs should be unnecessary, unfortunately with roofing painters like you've got there doing work, I can see the point.

We don't have permits for roofing in my area, and I was wondering about the process, what exactly does the inspector do on a steep roof like yours? I can't see them setting up a ladder 2stories to check things out for real.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:52 PM   #183
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Yeah Hren.

Let us know if the BI goes up on the roof, checks for ice dams flashing, Exposure, Nailing location and number of nails, How it is flashed, How the valleys are cut, drip edge etc. etc. etc. Please let us know, because I am very interested to see the report.

I know you are going to hate me for bringing this up, but if your specification had a requirement for a final inspection by the manufacturers technical dept with a written report to be issued to the homeowner and the roofer, That's the inspection you wanted.

You need to keep a copy of the manufacturers installation instructions at the time of installation, and you also want to keep a couple of bundles of the same lot number of shingles in a dry cool place in case you need to replace any shingles, or if you need original shingles for lab testing down the road.

Here is why: Tests to see if a particular shingle meets an ASTM standard on a shingle that has been in service for a number of years are worthless, because the MFGR can simply say that the shingle has suffered unusual aging due to unforeseen conditions in service. They cant make the same claim about NOS shingles kept in a cool dark dry place, now can they?

As far as codes go, building codes are life safety codes and are minimal in most cases. They are not "Keep the water out of my building" codes. Case in point: In my county secondary protection is not required under vinyl siding. Everybody knows that you need it, and the vinyl siding mfgrs assn says you need it to prevent moisture intrusion. But it isnt a life safety issue, so the IRC does not require it, and neither does my county. I had a heated argument with the local building department about this to no avail. They are bone heads, and will not listen to reason.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:48 PM   #184
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Bumping you a week because he is sick is rediculous. They need more staff. Nothing like dragging out an already painfull situation another week.

95% of the time here, the building inspector doesnt get on the roof for a final inspection on a metal roof. They wouldnt know what is right or wrong unless it is an obvious error. In thier defense, they cant possibly know all the installation details for every type of metal roofing out there. Jagan is right about the installation manual, get one and make sure your roofer knows you have it lol...this should insure you make your point as to the detail lvl you are expecting. Make sure it is a current manual. Any deviation from the manual should raise a red flag.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:51 PM   #185
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


I hear you guys on the reality of inspections vs my ideal-world example of why I think they're a good idea. But I stick by my hope that one day I'll live in an ideal world! I have to, or I'll jump out the window.

I also hear you about the manufacturer's warranty and all of that stuff. Frankly, we're probably not going to be in this house long enough for that to matter. Because the warranty is non-transferable. So even though this roof *should* last 30-50 years, according to the manufacturer, they'll drop that coverage the minute we close on the sale. And that's probably going to be some time in the next 5-8 years. As long as the roof lasts that long, I'll be happy.

Not that I would purposely try pawn off a crappy roof to the next owners, like the previous owners sort of did to us. (They got the house re-roofed when they put it on the market. And they did it the cheapest way possible.) But I'm aware that by 5-8 years from now, the next wave in regulations and best practices will likely have hit, and people will be up in arms that we put in ridge vents and rant about how stupid we were to use ice shield. Or whatever.

In other words, the roof itself will most likely outlast the belief that the roof is sound. And at some point, the next fool will be pushed into putting on a new roof that they don't probably need, because a mortgage lender or insurance company or building inspector insists on it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:05 PM   #186
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


By the way, it's raining. You guys think there's any problem with draining the gutter right next to the foundation? Nah, me neither.




And, why yes! Those are pieces of the old gutter lying next to the new one. He has cleaned the property thoroughly, people! What do you mean it's not satisfactory?!
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:31 AM   #187
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:16 AM   #188
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Hren,,,,I welcome inspections.There is nothing better and more gratifying to a contractor/roofer than having your roof or other installations past with flying colors by a knowledgible inspector.Better than that is KNOWING it will pass the day you sign the contract and pull that permit.

We have had our roofs inspected in many states by various building departments as well as shingle and siding manufactures without a single fail in the almost 14 years I have been in business.

Some areas I have heard about on these forums puzzle me in regards to roof inspections.Our roofs when inspected were inspected for felt installation,nail pattern,fastener quantity,drip edge,valleys,step flashing,exposure,ridge cap direction,overhang,J channels,F trim,siding offsets and pattern,siding fastening technique,window flashing and othe are things I can bore you with.

IMHPO those things should be inspected in every state,city,town and county NATIONWIDE.Also IMHPO many of these areas mentioned on the forums are nothing but a money racket.These inspectors (Not all) barely know the IRC to begin with.Pull a permit,($$$) schedule your inspection ($$$) and the inspector inspects your roof and the roofs of many others in the area to justify you paying your money and filling the pockets of your city without a proper inspection.

Your inspector is sick BOO HOO !!! So now that the poor little guy is sick your put behind.Maybe next time tell them when pulling a permit that your sick and will gladly pay for the permit next week if they would be so kind as to issue it today.Yeah right that will happen,,,as if.

So by chance is this "Building Inspector" also pulling double duty as the dog catcher or the meter maid ? Maybe he is an Alderman too.

With as much B.S as you have dealt with I think you should be committed to an asylum if you rely solely on this official saying your roof is installed right.I would call a manufacture representative to inspect your roof prior to final payment.

Why would you spend all this time and spending your energy (Negative or positive) and the money for these repairs without knowing for a fact its a proper manufacture warranty compliant installation ?

Having the mind set of your not going to be there since you might be selling very soon IMHPO is irresponsible as a homeowner.Why pass off a crap roof on to another homeowner.Homeownership in America is supposedly "The American Dream" Remember how happy you were before,during and a while afterwards about your new purchase ? Dreams and thoughts of "How awesome" "Imagine what it will look like " "Can't wait to see it finished" type of thoughts and dreams.,

Why crush someone else's dreams and ambitions by handing them a house with a questionable roof ?
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:58 AM   #189
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


Roof inspections are comical.

We had a job we did a few months ago (i posted a picture of it) that we had to pull a permit for. We had to replace this 40 year roof after 10 because the previous roofers nailed over skip sheathing, making sure that nearly no nails went into the nail line.

We remove all the shingles, install new sheathing and re shingle it. Call the inspector and he comes by, looks from the ground and says its good to go. I say "no wonder it passed last time." He asked me what that meant and I told him and he said that they don't actually get on roofs.

The extra $75 to the city must be nice though.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:31 AM   #190
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This isn't the proper way to roof, right?


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I would call a manufacture representative to inspect your roof prior to final payment.

Why would you spend all this time and spending your energy (Negative or positive) and the money for these repairs without knowing for a fact its a proper manufacture warranty compliant installation ?
...
Why crush someone else's dreams and ambitions by handing them a house with a questionable roof ?
I hear you. But I think if you reread what I wrote, you'll see that I am specifically trying to NOT get or pass on a bad roof. I just have no idea how to make sure that happens, so I'm getting snarky and disillusioned.

The shingle warranty is the weakest part of this house of cards. Which is why we made the roofer put in the contract that his company will take over the manufacturer's warranty terms if his installation voids their warranty.

Also, a person trained to inspect for a shingle warranty is not likely to have my best interests in mind. Are they going to do a load test and see if the horizontal sheathing works? Are they going to count the nails and make sure the code-required number of them go through sheathing into rafters? Are they going to check to see if the gutters drain an appropriate distance from my foundation? No. They're going to see a bad nail strike-through and tell me the whole roof needs to be redone.

And they may be right that the nailing pattern invalidates the warranty. Or that the flashing does. But who cares? My roofer isn't going to come back and fix it because of that. He has left the job, and isn't finishing the other very obviously unfinished work that I've pointed out to him. (That's the "turn for the worse" that I mentioned a few posts back.)

The only thing that he has said he will respond to is the building inspector. So that is where I need to put my attention. And if the building inspector passes the roof as is, then there's really nothing I can do about it.

Which is why I've been to the building inspector's office twice, and called them more than that. And they are now familiar with me, and with the fact that I have doubts about my roofer.

I don't see what else I can do that will have positive results.

But I'm open for more suggestions!
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:24 AM   #191
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Were Hanover Prest 3" Concrete splashblocks specified for your project? Or do you just expect that this guy will throw them in for free?

Yeah, he needs to clean up. That should have been specified also, but it should be common sense.

It is pretty clear that what this guy deems acceptable, and what you deem acceptable are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Like I already said in a previous post, you need to write down your expectations, stop the job, and get on the same page. Letting him proceed, then complaining about everything he does is worthless.

You cant go anywhere without a map.

I am usually appalled at the proposals that most homeowners sign. They are usually so vague that I am always asking "Where's the rest of it?" Typically:

1. No start and completion date.
2. Very vague product information like "White Sheet Metal" (Gage? Type? Domestic Manufacture? Sheen? Actual color?) Product Data Sheets????

The real problem with residential construction is that nobody wants to pay a good consultant to write a good specification, because they think that the contractor knows what he is doing. Unfortunately, if the contractor is bidding against another guy that has no intention of providing half of what he intends to provide, he is not the low bidder, and homeowners usually always take the low bidder, then start looking at the original proposal when something does not seem to be going their way.

I always end up saying "Wheres the Beef" when I am presented a proposal on a less than wonderful project.

The one thing I stopped doing years ago is taking a handful of proposals presented to an owner, and critiquing them to sort out which one is best.
What a waste of time.

You need a select group of contractors bidding on a comprehensive specification to get solid bids. Apples to Apples, not Oranges to Onions, or in your case, Lemons.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:33 AM   #192
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Were Hanover Prest 3" Concrete splashblocks specified for your project? Or do you just expect that this guy will throw them in for free?
I had to Google that one just to understand that you were responding to my gutter downspout post. I hate it that you make it sound like I'm being a prima donna. I didn't demand high-quality new items for free, you know. I'm talking about basic responsibility for finishing the job right.

We had an extender on the original downspout that drained it away from the house and into the yard. The new gutter guys removed the existing downspouts and replaced them, and did not re-attach the extender. They left it under the deck, about ten feet away from the new downspout elbow.

That is not something I should have to specify in a contract! Is it the end of the world? No. Does it piss me off? Hells yes! I spent 30 minutes in the pouring rain finding the extender, trying to get it to fit on the new downspout, getting the big pool of water away from my foundation, and then checking all the other downspouts to see if they were all connected. That was what we paid THEM for!

The other gutters attach to ground drains. Would you suggest that I have to write in the contract "make sure new downspouts still connect to ground drains"? Come on! This isn't rocket science!

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You need a select group of contractors bidding on a comprehensive specification to get solid bids.
I wish I could have gotten even a group at all. Forget a select group. I couldn't get people to even answer the phone after Sandy! Much less show up at my house.

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Old 01-12-2013, 12:11 PM   #193
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Forget a select group. I couldn't get people to even answer the phone after Sandy! Much less show up at my house.
Yeah but hey, the economy's bad, right?
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:54 PM   #194
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You are right. They should have put the extender back, and cleaned up properly. I don't understand how people think nowadays either. I feel sorry for this country, and you.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:46 PM   #195
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I don't understand how people think nowadays either. I feel sorry for this country, and you.

I have to agree.Too many stories confirming the lack of respect to customers and their property.Having the thought process of "Do unto others as you'd have them do to you " is almost nonexistent anymore.

Pride in workmanship is getting harder to find these days as well.It seems to be "Make that money" rather than build a reputation for honesty,integrity and a higher standard of ethics.

That's not just construction either.Cashiers,waitresses,postal employees,tellers,even door greaters have a sour outlook on what they are doing.

Did you know I even had a school bus driver flip me off last summer with a bus full of kids ? It wasn't pretty when I caught her at the stop light.Its just sad the way things are turning out.

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