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Old 08-07-2007, 04:42 PM   #1
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I'm Upset-dishonest Deceptive Company!


Long post, well worth the read! 15sq roof


Diogenes, is said to have searched for a honest man with a lantern. I searched for a honest roofing firm to do my roof. Indeed I thought I found them. I found them in the Fairfield County Gazette . Big full page ad. $700 off any complete job (over $5000). Fair enough. I had the manager out and he looked at it the job, he told me he would send a proposal. This is a full tear off of one layer of 3 tab. I told him I wanted a 50yr shingle w/ice & water at eves, rakes, and ridge and all projections which just amounts to a skylight a bath vent & bath exhaust. New ridge vent to replace the old. Starters at eves and rakes. His proposal came in the mail. Fixed labor $1945 and estimated material at $2810. As you can see that does not add up to $5000 but the proposal stated all discounts included and in his own hand he wrote saving $700 and circled it. I had him come up to the house with the contract and we filled it out I showed him my price quotes for all materials came out considerably less than his. He assured me that his actual material cost would be lower and he would tell me before the work started and if not satisfied I could cancel. When the manager and I added the labor numbers they did not add up. That is to say based on what the roofer below told me...$1945-$1100 is $845, so where is the $700 saving. It was then that the manager told me that I don't get that because the job is not over $5000. So I signed and he left, now after the fact, looking at the proposal is when 2 and 2 have really come together. I will be charitable and simply call it deception on their part. They would not disclose the scheme until pressed on the issue.

The night before I spoke with a roofer who I had called days before but was late in getting back to me . I explained what I wanted and asked him what he would charge if I stripped off the old roof and made for a clean surface for him to work with. The answer was $1100 if it was 15sq simple roof.


Perception is the rule and my perception is that I have been victomized. I am confident after watching this board that all of you that give sage advice to those who seek it and would never intentionally do the wrong thing or try to leverage a situation to your favor.

Thanks for listening to my rant. I don't get hurt here because I have 3 days to cancel out.

Doc


Last edited by Docfletcher; 08-07-2007 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:57 PM   #2
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Most states have a 3-day right to rescind (cancel the contract) Rescission may be the proper remedy. It may even say that in fine print somewhere on your contract. I am not sure you are being dealt with dishonestly. I can also not say that your contractor is honest. Your contractor could probably be more open with you about how they are charging. They may just be a poor communicator. I like an informed client. I have no trouble explaining that I mark up my materials and figure a portion of my overhead into every contract. It is a cost of doing business. There are more costs involved in a project than just time and materials. Many contractors will simplify their billing into these two categories however. I am sure you expect to pay more than just the actual cost of the materials and the wages of those installing them. The question is one of value. Is $4755 a reasonable price to pay for the removal and replacement of your roof. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples when you evaluate your proposals. Even discuss material differences with your contractors to understand what you are paying for.

If you have a proposal to do the job at a lower cost and are able to rescind your current contract you may want to consider it. I do not ever want a client that feels manipulated. I would much rather have a client that tell their friends that I was higher priced but worth every penny.

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Old 08-07-2007, 06:53 PM   #3
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I agree with you in principle. The labor quote $1945 to remove and replace is not a bad deal. The problem I have with it is simply that on the proposal he states that $1945 is the amount after subtracting $700 from what the labor would have been $1945 plus $700 = $2645. Then told that there was no discount after all. That said what is the going rate to remove and replace per sq, labor only? After all is said and done the total cost on this roof will be $4500. .

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Old 08-07-2007, 07:38 PM   #4
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Possibly, one point you are still not considering, is that the contractor is selling you a completed roofing project, not 15 squares of shingle material and the cheapest price you can find on the internet to have them removed and then the new shingles installed.

That being said, the 3 day right of recission law is a federal law which all contractors who provide in home sales must point out in very strict accordance with the guidelines set by the governing body who regulates the conformance to the regulations in your area.

I presume that you had the opportunity to speak with several contractors prior to signing a contract with the one you seem to be upset with. If you did not take due diligence and properly compare all of the quotes presented to you, that is your fault.

Every home owner should always interview each and every contractor prior to making such a substantial investment in their roofing product, which is supposed to last a minimum of 30 years as the protection of all of your familys treasured possessions.

Here is some good, but verbose information on how to select a contractor and what questions you should be asking them.

Scroll down to the 10 Points On What To Ask Any Contractor for the most pertinent information for your situation.

http://rightwayroofing.wordpress.com/



Ed

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Old 08-07-2007, 08:40 PM   #5
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Forget the materials. They have to do with nothing.

It is simply a matter of telling me on the proposal that the labor total is $1945
after a $700 labor discount is applied. Even though the job was not making the $5000 (was $4755) he was giving the discount.

So I have him come to the house do the contract. Once he is at my house I find out there is no $700 discount. I don't make the $5000 grand minimum. The $1945 is the regular labor rate. It was not till after he left that I re-read the proposal. I say he knew he was not going to discount the labor but he deliberately put it on the proposal to suck me in. It's not about the money,
it's about deceit.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docfletcher View Post
Fixed labor $1945 and estimated material at $2810. As you can see that does not add up to $5000 but the proposal stated all discounts included and in his own hand he wrote saving $700 and circled it.
I take that to mean the original price for the job was: $5455

$1945
$2810
+ $700
$5455

And you were given a discount of $700 on the complete job.

Is it possible there was a miscommunication when you had your contractor over to review the proposal? Maby he thought you were seeking an additional $700 discount and did not realize he had already given you one since your job was now below his $5000 limit.

There are dishonest and sneaky contractors out there as much as in any other profession. Maby this actually is his sales tactic. I tend to expect the best of people. As a general rule people will meet your expectations. Have another conversation with him, show him what he wrote, and let him explain it. Let him know how you feel about the situation. Possibly this is not a project you should do together.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:45 PM   #7
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No. Proposal was for 1945 fixed labor cost after $700 discount applied.

As it turns out there is no discount, 1945 is the regular labor rate to remove and replace a roof like mine says the roofer who did the proposal.

Material costs were just a estimate based on what materials I wanted. For example if I wanted grace instead of weatherwatch. Don't let the materials distract you.

I'm not saying 1945 is not a good price to remove and replace 15 sq of roofing. It may be or it may not be. I don't know the going rate for that. I guess I should make it my business to know. What I do know is that was presented as a great deal of $700 off the regular labor rate. There was no discount on materials, although he said he gets better prices than I can.
Materials as he put it are at the market rate. I need to get a written list of exactly what products he is going to use as per my request. That way he can't substitute anything.

Thats why I had him come back to the house so quick. I was to hasty. Anxious to save $700 in labor.

I may still go with the deal. He said the job would end up $4500 or below for everything. That don't sound to bad. Or I may strip the roof with my son. Buy my own materials. Rent my own dumpster. Then have a roofer I know right here in town put it on for $1100 LOL

Thank you for your reply. I'll be sure to post all the gory details.
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:50 AM   #8
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I think if you are not comfortable with the way he carry out the business, just don't use him.... like many things, if a little thing being dishonest, others could come later... the issue is really you already not too happy with him... this is not a good sign... not really the money part...I personally do not like verbal promises like "actual will cost less at the end"..etc... those are smoke more than anything... and I bet it won't...
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:55 AM   #9
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If you can add a few options to boost their regular price up $500 to a total of $5000, won't you save $200 over the $4500 they quoted you?
$5000 - $700 = $4300.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:32 AM   #10
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I spoke with him by phone. I explained my beef. He said he never wrote the $700 discount, that it must have been one of the other 2 managers or the secretarys in the office.

I had him come up to get his sign and refund the deposit. I showed him the proposal paper work and asked if he wrote it. No anser. He simply said "good luck to you".

Actually $1945 to remove and replace 15 or 16 square of shingles is probably not a bad deal. It's just that thier were to many smoke signals and alot of it was vaque.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:59 AM   #11
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That is a really good price in my area. Be careful with people who do side work, unless you personally know him. In my experience, they will cut a lot of corners because they do not have any outside pressure from a company. The only thing that makes sure they do a good job is their reputation. I don't know a lot of side work people that care about that too much unless they plan on opening their own business soon. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but I have met a lot who are.

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Old 08-08-2007, 12:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docfletcher View Post
I spoke with him by phone. I explained my beef. He said he never wrote the $700 discount, that it must have been one of the other 2 managers or the secretarys in the office.

I had him come up to get his sign and refund the deposit. I showed him the proposal paper work and asked if he wrote it. No anser. He simply said "good luck to you".

Actually $1945 to remove and replace 15 or 16 square of shingles is probably not a bad deal. It's just that thier were to many smoke signals and alot of it was vaque.

good move... I don't like people kind of lieing even little ones...
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:29 PM   #13
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Well, looks like my new roofer gets the job. He is a pro and does it for a living. Has for many years. Says he will tear of the 16 SQ for $500 and put down the 16sq of shingles for $1200. Thats a better deal than the last guy by $245 and I can rent my own 8 yard dumpster and save a few bucks there as well.

He says they put 6 nails in each shingle. I guess thats good. Sounds like overkill to me though.

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Old 08-08-2007, 06:54 PM   #14
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This whole thread is a bad deal. first off any contractor who has these discount adds is shaddy to begin with, Nothing in life is free. secondly, an add like that only attracts bottom feeder type custumers who care more for price than value, custumers I wouldnt want. third, material cost is proprietory information I dont tell my custumers material cost, no good reason why. I am looking for a good honest custumer just like they should be looking for a good honest contractor. For the price stated the guy is a jackelag for sure.Good luck you may need it.

RooferJim

www.jbennetteroofing.com

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Old 08-08-2007, 07:55 PM   #15
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Gee, right after I complimented your great looking
website it would appear you wish to bash me as a bottom feeder type.

Dear Roofer Jim,

Look, I'm not looking for trouble here so suffice it for me to say you don't know what your talking about. Surly not all roofing companies that advertise a sale are shady. Indeed, most are not. It is simply a way through marketing to attract new business. Nothing wrong in that. Most businesses do it.

Smart consumers on the other hand are market driven.
They cause businesses to compete. That's one way costs stay in check. In most business if you can't find a way to compete with your competitors you go out of business.

Value and price go hand in hand, we all use these tools to cut the best deal. Knowing through research what the material actually costs prevents being overcharged. By the way were you ever overcharged for something that you thought was a good price? How did you feel after you found out?

You don't even know this roofer I selected yet you insinuate he's a jakelag, (Whatever that is). Not something I would expect
a professional like you to say, Jim.

I hope you don't think of me as some sort of bottom feeder. By the way, why don't you come down and quote my roof. Maybe you can beat my roofers price.


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