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-   -   Ice and water question (http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/ice-water-question-31831/)

rockee 11-13-2008 10:20 PM

Ice and water question
 
I have a crew doing a roof. Hopefully I can get some answers to these questions, and please don't say "ask your roofer", since I want your answers.

The roof is a 7 pitch and planning to run 3 ft of ice and water along each long side. Should we also run this on the 4 gable ends?

The roof we are replacing is older. After stripping, plan to install the ice and water, and then 8" drip over it at sides and gable ends. In addition was planning to seal where back edge of drip edge meets ice and water. Is this necessary, and if so, what should be used to seal this seam - strips of ice and water or some type of lap-sealant - if so, what type?

Ed the Roofer 11-13-2008 11:22 PM

You don't need it along the gable/rake edges in my opinion. I never knew of anyone that actually did that, even though there is a spec for it in the Grace Ice and Water Shield website.

But, they just want to sell more material, right?

Have you ever experinced weather infiltration problems along the gable/rake edges previously?

If not, forget about the additional cost. It would be a waste of time and money.

Also, you can use a strip about 6" wide of Grace Ice and Water Shield to "Strip In" the edge of the Gutter Apron Drip Edge Metal flashing that gets installed along only the gutter eave edges.

There is a spec for that on the Grace Ice and Water Shield website too.

If it is not on the website, it is for sure in one of their pocket user manuals.

Ed

rockee 11-13-2008 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 184644)
You don't need it along the gable/rake edges in my opinion. I never knew of anyone that actually did that, even though there is a spec for it in the Grace Ice and Water Shield website.

But, they just want to sell more material, right?

Have you ever experinced weather infiltration problems along the gable/rake edges previously?

If not, forget about the additional cost. It would be a waste of time and money.

Also, you can use a strip about 6" wide of Grace Ice and Water Shield to "Strip In" the edge of the Gutter Apron Drip Edge Metal flashing that gets installed along only the gutter eave edges.

There is a spec for that on the Grace Ice and Water Shield website too.

If it is not on the website, it is for sure in one of their pocket user manuals.

Ed

This brings up another question. DO you think it's worth the extra $ to buy Grace Ice and Water vs Certainteed Winterguard Ice and water ($130/roll vs $70/roll)?

OldNBroken 11-14-2008 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 184644)
You don't need it along the gable/rake edges in my opinion. I never knew of anyone that actually did that.

But, they just want to sell more material, right?


Also, you can use a strip about 6" wide of Grace Ice and Water Shield to "Strip In" the edge of the Gutter Apron Drip Edge Metal flashing that gets installed along only the gutter eave edges.



Ed

Or you can run the eave metal under the ice and water as shown on mfr specs also.

Agree with Ed, the mfr diagrams for ice/water is a promo ploy to sell more product.

Slyfox 11-14-2008 06:25 AM

I only use grace in high problem areas and under speciality roofs such as Tile, Slate and Metal.
When you compare the life span of the ice & water to the life span of a 25 to 50 year asphalt/fiberglas shingle roof you'll find Certainteed and Tamko products to be the more feasable choice.

I never use i&w on rakes either, just on the eaves, in valleys, along walls, and around penetrations.
Make sure it is installed directly to the decking.

Ed the Roofer 11-14-2008 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNBroken (Post 184666)
Or you can run the eave metal under the ice and water as shown on mfr specs also.

Agree with Ed, the mfr diagrams for ice/water is a promo ploy to sell more product.

The best way is to run the first section of I & W Shield past the eave and at least 2" to 3" down onto the fascia, behind the gutter if possible.

Then install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge metal flashing.

Then install a 4" to 6" wide strip of I and W Shield over the roof deck portion of the Gutter Apron.

By installing the Gutter Apron underneath the I and W Shield, if the gutter fills up with ice and backs up under the Drip Edge metal, it can still pose a potential problem, albeit a very unlikely scenario.

Ed

marky25 04-25-2009 04:08 PM

icey water
 
If I tear off a roof in Michigan that's 25 years old and find no damage to any decking and it looks like it was put down the day before why would the codes say I must use it now? Is there an upcoming ice age these folks know of?Wouldn,t it be better to take care of an ice problem be with insulation and proper ventilation? Also I just tore off a roof with ice and water shield on it and it was impossable to get the deck contact part of the shingle off so we were forced into tearing off otherwise good decking.I ate the labor cost but luckily the homeowner was nice and bought the wood.I feel sorry for future roofers tearing off the roofs I've done by this ridiculous code.

jaros bros. 04-25-2009 05:07 PM

Not every place in like where you are in Michigan. In the Northeast it warms and freezes several times during the day during the winter. After a couple weeks of this, even steeply pitched roofs can have major ice buildup.

Ed the Roofer 04-25-2009 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marky25 (Post 265431)
If I tear off a roof in Michigan that's 25 years old and find no damage to any decking and it looks like it was put down the day before why would the codes say I must use it now? Is there an upcoming ice age these folks know of?Wouldn,t it be better to take care of an ice problem be with insulation and proper ventilation? Also I just tore off a roof with ice and water shield on it and it was impossable to get the deck contact part of the shingle off so we were forced into tearing off otherwise good decking.I ate the labor cost but luckily the homeowner was nice and bought the wood.I feel sorry for future roofers tearing off the roofs I've done by this ridiculous code.

You don't charge for necessary wood replacement as a part of your contract?

Why? The wood decking problem was not YOUR Fault, was it?

Ed

marky25 04-26-2009 08:17 AM

icey water
 
Yes,but I wrote it as rotted which it was clearly not.It didn't take long and I consider myself a fair minded contractor with a good reputation that gets me plenty of word of mouth (which it did).It wasn't the home owners fault they made the previous roofers use this unnecessary product.You still haven't answered my question which is;Wouln't the extra cost of this product be spent on proper insulation and ventilation?

marky25 04-26-2009 08:33 AM

icey water
 
Sorry but I missed you're first answer posted at 5:07. My response to this I do believe in Ice and water shield where it is neccesary,but as I've torn off so many roofs where there has never been any damage from this phenomenon and been forced to put this expensive, wood destroying product on adding it to the cost of my bid I tend to be a bit cynical.I'm just saying wouldn't 25 to 30 years of exposure be enough proof that you don't need this product?

Scuba_Dave 04-26-2009 11:59 AM

Is the problem with replacing a roof with Ice & Water shield that the shingles stick to the I&W ?
So sort of a flaw in the product ?

Sort of overkill, but would tar paper over the I&W solve this problem?
Or would that be an even bigger problem?

marky25 04-26-2009 12:32 PM

Yes and yes .But the issue of cost for the ice and water shield still remain.I just don't like the building department forceing me to use this product if its not neccesary and future tearoffs are gonna be alot harder because these codes have been in effect here for a while.

marky25 05-03-2009 08:34 AM

why is 30# felt better than 15#? What is roofing felts job after shingles are applied ?

Ed the Roofer 05-03-2009 05:38 PM

30# does not tear as easily when walking on it and does not wrinkle and buckle all over the place like 15#.

Once the roof is in place, if there is ever a missing shingle from wind damage, then you have twice as thick of a protective backing until the repair gets done.

Ed


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