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Old 06-15-2009, 07:21 PM   #1
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


I had a new roof put on last October. I think the job is substandard. In fact, I think it's bad enough to warrant a tear off and redo, however that would mean I'm out over 6K. If there are any professional roofers reading this, would you take a look at these pictures?

I've tried to point out what I think is wrong, but I am not a roofer. I think the old saying is something like "for every mistake you can see, there are 3 more that you don't."

http:\\newroof355.blogspot.com

Thanks for any input you can provide. This may end up being a very expensive lesson.
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:41 PM   #2
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


That is the job of a hack or inexperienced roofer along with inferior materials. Simple as that. Some of the things done are just preference, and some are just plain wrong.

How did you come about hiring this person/company?

May I also ask what you paid and where you are located?
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:49 PM   #3
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


I recall reading your post on www.RoofingTalk.com where you already received some advice, not at all being kind in any way to the contractor.

Firstly, in my opinion, he should be given an opportunity to make good on his promise to you that the items will be corrected as per your and his agreement to the punch-list items.

You see, just because someone makes mistakes, or their crew they hired to do the job does not make it look as nice as we all would expect, the true test is really more on if he is honest and ethical enough to attempt to do the right thing.

No, I do not think that the entire roof will need to be torn off.

Regarding some of those photos that you took from on top of the roof, would you notice the waviness of the rows from the front lawn?

Is so, they are necessitated to have straightened out.

Is there really missing flashings under the window sills, or did he just install the shingles over the top of the old existing sheet metal?

So, go at it like that first, before you crucify him and make your list and see what he is willing and capable of doing about those items first.

Then, gety back to us and report what his response is.

On the one exposed nail that I remember seeing this morning, there usually is one last piece of ridge cap shingle material that does have a face nail in it. Any exposed nails should be covered with a good quality caulking sealant of a similar color tone as the roof shingle color. Then that is fixed.

The cut ridge cap shingle where the ridge intersects with the main plane of the larger roof surface can be removed and replaced at a very minor inconvenience, but there usually does wind up being a slice in the shingle to conform to the pitch trasition change.

The wavy rows on the walk-on porch roof can be removed down to a course of shingles and then re-installed with chalk lines being snapped, to ensure that they are straight and true. A minor adjustment in the course exposure may need to be made, but rather than all at once, just around 1/8" to 1/4" per row, to make sure the shingles tie in to the steeper roof slope row correctly.

See if he will honor his commitment to providing you an adequate job.

Substantial completion and to conform to Industry Standards does not necessarily mean that the project will be perfect, but that it will work for the purpose intended.

Ed
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:21 PM   #4
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Thanks Ed. I forgot I posted that question under my old blogger account. I appreciate you taking the time to detail your response a bit, and it will definitely help me with using the right terminology when talking to him again. the only thing I didn't mention is that the transition that's there right now was his *second* attempt at it. The first one was crazy. He ripped it out and redid it, and it was better. At the time it wasn't all bowed up, but it was better. I was willing to live with it because you couldn't see it from the ground.

The flashings are there. The old ones. He did put step flashing near the dormer. I remember him cutting it and bending it with tinsnips. He also didn't replace the original flashing over the dormers. The original shingles had an aluminum channel (not sure what you call it) but the shingles didn't touch like they do now. There was a silver strip. that's what he shingled over. The exposed nail, I understand the reason for -- it was more the cracked shingle I was concerned about. And how do you replace drip edge without tearing off the shingles?

The other thing I thought was a little suspect (but may be valid, and I've never heard it before) was he said he used ice and water shield as "felt" and other than the first 3 feet, he didn't peel the back off. He also didn't put anything behind the last two courses of shingles at the peak. They are nailed right to the plywood.

Last edited by mfitz; 06-15-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:25 PM   #5
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW View Post
That is the job of a hack or inexperienced roofer along with inferior materials. Simple as that. Some of the things done are just preference, and some are just plain wrong.

How did you come about hiring this person/company?

May I also ask what you paid and where you are located?
I am in upstate NY near Corinth, and I paid a little over $6,000. He was recommended by my brother in law. But he is a "contractor" and not a "roofer" but he assured me he had all sorts of roofing experience.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:45 PM   #6
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mfitz View Post
I am in upstate NY near Corinth, and I paid a little over $6,000. He was recommended by my brother in law. But he is a "contractor" and not a "roofer" but he assured me he had all sorts of roofing experience.
Sorry to pry with the questions I asked. Just trying to get a feel for the whole situation.

I'm with Ed on this one. There are so many variables that you we can't say thing are done "wrong" or "incorrect".

To me, it's just a shotty looking job with tactics I don't use. Some consider it decent work....I don't....on some of the things. If I came to your house and looked at the roof, I would immediately think that a homeowner did it himself. No offense to anyone here, but we see these kinds of things all the time. Most people never notice quality, and I wish more of this stuff would be broadcasted like you are doing. It would really help out the people that are actually doing good work.
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:42 AM   #7
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


Just a note about the roofers that many contractors use.
Good to them is cheap & as long as it doesnt leak in the near future.
Quality is not usually a requirement.
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing Inc
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:44 AM   #8
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


I am concerned based on the stuff he's had to "fix" for me already. After he put the roof on, it was leaking through the soffit. Turns out some of the drip edge had a reverse flow due to that ski-slope effect and the water was running in between where the two pieces of drip edge met. His solution was to hammer on the end until it was crushed enough to drip in the right direction (he did this while it was raining) and then "seal" it with caulk. I climbed up after he left, and it was water-based caulk! It was running all over. I used roofing cement to put the shingles back down.

The other fix was in the spring I noticed my bathroom roof vent lying in the snow. No idea how long I had a hole in my roof. It was pretty banged up and the flange was bent from the fall. So I called him, he came up and "fixed" that too -- It's pretty high up on a 12/12 pitch rear roof (3 stories since we have a walkout basement) so I had a hard time seeing it. Last week I bought a 34' ladder, and checked it out. It was the original bent up vent reinstalled, and there were broken shingles around it (from where he tried to jam it underneath again, and then gobs of some other kind of caulk behind it. On the plus side, at least he reconnected the flex pipe to the inside before putting it back on.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:33 AM   #9
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


Sounds bad
Water based caulk....
Putting a beat up cap back on, did he install this cap originally?
And breaking shingles while doing it, of course they are cold & brittle if there was snow. Id have done a temp fix & then a permanent fix once it warmed up

Ski slope & banging on the drip edge
Even with that it shoudl not have happened
Ice & Water shield should have overlapped the drip edge
Preventing the water from backflowing

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Old 06-16-2009, 11:17 AM   #10
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Yes, he put new vents on the roof as part of the contract. And yes, they were pretty brittle, I'm sure. It's on the north side of the house.

The way the water was getting into the drip edge was where they joined. It was getting in sideways, under the ice and water shield. I had to have him take the right and left side of the porch off and the back 3 feet (both after they were completed) because when I checked, it turned out that he didn't peel the back off the ice and water shield. Ridiculous.
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:36 AM   #11
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I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?


Unfortunately, for whatever reason, most roofers use the wrong type of sheet metal drip edge along the eaves.

He used what is known as an O.D.E., Overhanging Drip Edge, which is made for the rake/gable edges.

A proper Gutter Apron sheet metal should be used at the eaves.

But, even some manufacturers illustrations show the incorrect metal there.

By being bent at a 90* angle and being placed against a vertical fascia and also a sloped roof deck, the metal distorts and can create a sumped area along the entire eave.

This sump can also occur if the fascia board top portion is too high or alternatively, is not cut at the same angle as the roof decking slope.

Ed
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:47 AM   #12
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That makes perfect sense, and now that you've explained it, I can see that it's exactly what's happening here. The drip edge feels "springy" because the edge is probably an inch away from anything resembling wood.

Last edited by mfitz; 06-16-2009 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:27 PM   #13
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Ed, do you have a pic of proper drip edge to use along a gutter edge? Or how far down the drip edge should hang?
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:15 PM   #14
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Yes, both from manufacturers of the product and job photos, one in particular that shows exactly the same scenario that this OP is experiencing with the wrong style creating a sumped area in the shingles along the eave edge.

I will try to did them out later tonight.

In the mean time, look at some gutter supplier sites, like www.e-gutter.com maybe without the dash.....

Also, Appleton Metals out of Appleton Wisconsin and possible Rollex might have some pictures too.

Ed
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:20 PM   #15
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Although certainly adequately covered by previous responses, thought I would reiterate with my experience on improper gutter apron installation. Our previous roof had pre-fab gutter apron installed incorrectly such that the last course of shingles did not retain proper pitch toward the gutter. Like you, we are in the snow belt and consequently experienced aggravated ice dam formation due to this low slope condition. As the shingles neared the end of their useful life, water leaks into the soffits also occured. Our new roof was installed with gutters removed and custom press-brake gutter apron applied over ice and water (2008)

I would therefore recommend removal of gutters, gutter apron (looks like gable drip edge was used) and the first several courses of shingles. This will allow ice and water shield and gutter apron to be applied properly. Furthermore, during re-installation of the gutter, proper slope towards the downspout can be maintained - it looks like you have standing water at present. I would much prefer to perform or hire this work now than wait until soffits, porch roof, rafter tails and fascias become damaged (yeah, I replaced those too).

best

-Frankie Rizzo
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