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Old 06-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #16
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


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Originally Posted by OldNBroken View Post
I C. So just a slip sheet of sorts.
Well yeah, but secondary protection in case water gets through the joints in the coping. It will hit the EPDM and run out over the base flashing instead of behind it. Mod bit is way too thick and boardy to break right angles with. You can use HT Ice dams too, but epdm is usually handy and works well.

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Last edited by jagans; 06-11-2013 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 06-11-2013, 04:08 PM   #17
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


Garland is a great product, we are an approved installer, the Stress ply is is a great cap sheet also, only down fall is when it gets to hot out you have a hard time keeping them straight. I've never done the ones set in adhesive.

To be fair the reason why I never mention them is I don't know how far their reach is as far as marketing and installers goes, when I bid the last job the cap sheet was over 250 a roll Generally that puts their product out of the market for residential products.

The Epdm is to protect the nailer on the wall, I didn't added a sloped nailer as this can also be accomplished by making your cleat more like a gravel stop, thus making slope on the cap. Also we generally never bring the base or cap up and over the wall as it bunches up to much and EPDM servers the same purpose and is more user friendly in that application.


Oh and yeah it was a down and dirty spec. I get paid to get in to more detail


@ Op I didn't notice where you said the insulation was in your house, is there a attic space of sorts, it looks like it from the photos, if so, intake and exhaust vents would be needed.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:39 PM   #18
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


Most of our hot is Stress-ply. When it comes to BUR not much comes close to Garlands materials. I agree it's not for the general resi market but most everything we do is corporate or gov't. If you think the stress-ply is pricey, millenium is more. First time I've ever heat-welded a cap sheet though and it's just amazing to do.

Was referring to stress-ply when I said there are systems we do that will last him a very long time but don't know if it's in his price-range. The next best thing for the OP is 4-ply gravel, just as you spec'd. About the only system I know that has been used for decades all over the country and has a great track record in all regions. Unfortunately single-plys and environmentalists have really cooled our kettles the last 10 or 15 years. Only thing it's gained anyone is job-security for single-ply jockeys and constant sales for mfrs.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:37 PM   #19
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


Since I've eliminated the first two bids, does it make sense to get at least another tar and gravel / BUR estimate for comparison? The cost of the 3rd bid feels high... but I don't buy roofs every day..
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:18 AM   #20
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


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Since I've eliminated the first two bids, does it make sense to get at least another tar and gravel / BUR estimate for comparison? The cost of the 3rd bid feels high... but I don't buy roofs every day..
It never hurts to get two or three competitive bids for an apples-to-apples scope of work. The three bids you got were fine for determining the possibilities but if you now have a defined scope you want to pursue then get bids based on what you want more than what they are offering you.
You can even write up your own scope of work, hand it to them as they walk the roof and tell them you want bids based on that scope. I do recommend listening to them and considering any refinements they may have to your scope of work to make it better for your specific project. I do not recommend listening too long to anyone who wants to completely change your scope though.

Keep it simple and easy, yet concise. Some of us have short attention spans and tend to get annoyed by jumping through too many hoops for one little job. You may end up losing the interest of the best person to do your job. If that happened you may bSQUIRREL!!!!!

Last edited by OldNBroken; 06-12-2013 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:44 AM   #21
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


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Since I've eliminated the first two bids, does it make sense to get at least another tar and gravel / BUR estimate for comparison? The cost of the 3rd bid feels high... but I don't buy roofs every day..
"Feels High" compared to what? Two bids by people that don't know their axe from their elbow?

I used to run in to this all the time. I stopped doing it years ago. People asked me to compare bids they got from three different roofers. It was an exercise in futility.

You need a sound specification and drawings with everything that 1985gt and I told you about, and then you go out for bids based on those specifications and drawings. That is called a Project Manual.

There are other types of roof that you can install that would be cheaper and would last for about 20 years as long as people dont go up there and damage it, but you started out asking for a BUR, so you were given a first rate solution.

A BUR is the toughest roof you can get, but there are single ply roofs that have stood the test of time, and would work well for you. Google Sarnafil, and Fibertite. I have roofs installed with these membranes that were installed in the early 80's that are still going strong.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:51 AM   #22
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


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Originally Posted by OldNBroken View Post
Most of our hot is Stress-ply. When it comes to BUR not much comes close to Garlands materials. I agree it's not for the general resi market but most everything we do is corporate or gov't. If you think the stress-ply is pricey, millenium is more. First time I've ever heat-welded a cap sheet though and it's just amazing to do.

Was referring to stress-ply when I said there are systems we do that will last him a very long time but don't know if it's in his price-range. The next best thing for the OP is 4-ply gravel, just as you spec'd. About the only system I know that has been used for decades all over the country and has a great track record in all regions. Unfortunately single-plys and environmentalists have really cooled our kettles the last 10 or 15 years. Only thing it's gained anyone is job-security for single-ply jockeys and constant sales for mfrs.
I've never ran in to the Garland guy spec the millenium sheet. I will agree their roll goods are the best quality I've seen, a side from the problem we had with the cap sheet snaking around on us, for the record, I was either mopping or setting the rolls at the time and I couldn't get one to go straight to save my life, the other foreman then set the rolls and did the same for him. We figured that if 30+ years of combined experience couldn't get the rolls to run true then it was time to shut down. It was 110 out plus humidity. The rolls ran true and perfect at under 90 degs air temp. It was odd I can tell you.

The felts how I can't say enough about how awesome the felts are. Those line oh how the setters love those lines!

100% of our garland jobs have been on schools, all 30 year warranties and depending on the installer I have no doubt they will og that long or longer. Most of the ones the Garland rep specs now are gravel. I will chalk that up to the economy and people not being able to spend the $ on the mineral cap.

And sadly all of our kettles have been shut off for years a side from the here and there job, maybe 2 a year. It's a sad time.


@ Op, provide the roofing companies the spec, we have given you a good outline, there is nothing wrong with that, roofers bid to other peoples specs all the time. When I do bids like this I will often ask to see a competitors bid "spec" So I can bid apples to apples, of course I ask them to white out the price. You could always hire someone to write a spec for you also, every state, and most bigger city have a roof consultant some place, even some of the roofing companies do that type of work. We have done it 100's if not more times and also bid the work. Often times not getting the job!

Of course there is other options, PVC, even a good EPDM. all are viable options for you roof.


I would say research what YOU want for a roof, then write a spec or a down and dirty one and have the roofers bid to that, even spec a warranty. If nothing else you will be more informed and hopefully weed out the "roofers" who really can't roof. And I think we all can agree, a knowledgeable customer is sometimes a blessing, just as long as they don't watch your every move, and if they get on the roof while the tear off is going on, you get handed a fork or a shovel.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:06 PM   #23
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


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and if they get on the roof while the tear off is going on, you get handed a fork or a shovel.
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Old 06-13-2013, 01:24 AM   #24
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Help evaluating bids for a flat roof in San Francisco


I wanted to type in some of the specs from the BUR quote I got... the more I look into it and call around and read, the more its making sense to me.

Complete Main Roof Removal And Replacement With A New Four Ply Mineral Surfaced 25 Year Built Up

Roof System To Be Completed As Follows:

SURFACE PREPARATION
Dislodge and remove all the existing layers of the old roofing materials including any other debris or
foreign matter and remove from premises. Chip away the old asphalt materials adjacent to all the roof
outlets, pipes flashings, vents or any other roof penetrations, tops of walls, stucco or concrete surfaces
that connect to the roof membrane. Apply a brush coat of asphalt primer and allow to dry thoroughly. All
the roof outlets, pipes, and vent flashings and any other related flashings will be removed and replaced
with new material of same type and gauge. Examine the roof deck for potential problems that might affect
the new roof system quality or performance such as broken sheathing, weak areas, dry rot, trapped
moisture, etc. In the event problems of this nature are discovered COMPANY will
promptly contact the building owner or the owner’s agent to advise of the situation and the extra costs.
Any deck repairs are not included in this proposal as there is no means to predetermine the extent, if any,
of such defects. Any repair work is computed on a time and materials basis at a rate of $ 95.00 per man
hour plus the cost of the materials. This includes the time for the removal and disposal of the defective
materials and the time to purchase and install the new materials.

Remove and replace all roof drains and pipe flashings.
Note: We will check the heater flue as we believe the top part of the flue is missing.
Furnish and install an extra pipe flashing for the cable supply line.

New Roof System:
ROOF MEMBRANE APPLICATION (NON ORGANIC)
Apply the new four ply roof membrane in the following manner; Install one layer of Fontana G-40 Base
Sheet (40lbs) starting at the low point of the roof surface or at the roof outlets over the entire roof surface
lapping each sheet with a 2 inch overlap and a minimum 6 inch end lap. Secure the base sheet to the
substrate with ring shank capped simplex type fasteners. Apply the fasteners to overlaps on
approximately 9 inch intervals and apply two staggered rows to the center of each sheet, stagger nailed
at 18 inch intervals. Install two layers of CertainTeed Ply Sheet set in a solid mopping of hot bitumen
(Type III) at a rate of approximately 25 lbs per every 100 sq. ft. of surface area per layer. All the ply
sheets are to be broomed or stepped into position to insure a positive lamination. Install one layer of
CertainTeed Cap Sheet over the entire roof surface set in a solid mopping of Type III hot bitumen at a
rate of approximately 25 lbs per every 100 sq ft of surface area.

FLASHING
Set new primed pipe flashings in a solid trowelling of flashing cement over the new roof membrane and
secure with proper length galvanized nails on 2 inch centers. Apply two alternate layers of fiberglass
finishing felts over the new flashing set in a solid mopping of hot bitumen and feather out approximately 4
inches per layer. Reinforce all the angle laps, the inside and outside corners on any base flashings, the
roof outlets, the pipe flashings and any other roof penetration with a trowelling of flashing cement.
PARAPETWALL AREAS
Install one layer of CertainTeed Ply Sheet over the entire wall surface area and set in a sprinkle mopping
of hot bitumen. Install one layer of CertainTeed Cap Sheet set in a solid mopping of hot bitumen with all
the seams double mopped and pressed into place by hand. Both the layers shall have the seams
feathered a minimum of six inches. Secure the tops of the walls with capped nails approximately on 8
inch centers.

Furnish and install new 4" x 2" perimeter flashing at the outer perimeters to be set on a solid trowelling of
flashing cement over the new mineral surfaced cap sheet and anchor on six inch centers. Apply asphalt primer to the top flange of the metal and apply a six inch wide layer of 72lb mineral surfaced cap sheet
set in hot asphalt over the new perimeter metal.

Note: The main roof connects to a stucco chimney next door and need special attention as follows:

Chip away and remove four to five inches of the stucco and dispose. After the new roof is in place furnish
and install a new weep screed, new steel lath and new stucco. Furnish and apply a coat of primer to the
new stucco surfaces.

Remove the middle 4x4 glass skylight. Fabricate and install a new 24 gauge sloped glass skylight to
match the original.

Note: This project will take three days to complete.

WARRANTY
This new roof system is warranted against defects in labor and workmanship for TEN YEARS
commencing at the completion of the work. At the end of the ten year warranty period, if we are allowed
to return and perform thorough maintenance on the existing roof, with price to be computed on a time and
material basis at the time, we will extend the warranty for an additional ten (10) year warranty. At the end
of the that ten year warranty period, if we are allowed to return and perform thorough maintenance on the
existing roof, with price to be computed on a time and material basis at the time, we will extend the
warranty for an additional five (5) year warranty. Our warranty is transferable to any new ownership.

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